The Latest Potentially-Explosive Racially-Charged Murder

[Cail]

He was in arrears on his child support. Not a capital offense.

[SoulBiter]

We cant assume the worst just because someone runs. People don't always react as they should. I have a cousin that took off running into the woods after a stop. Why? Cause he had been drinking and thought if he could keep them from giving him a test until morning, the fine would be less than running from the cops. They picked him up at our Grandmothers house the next morning... no hassle. I'm not sure but I think his strategy worked.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

This looks like a straightforward case, and I'm glad justice will be served. However, we know nothing about the dead runner. What if he was a murder suspect? Should anyone who can outrun the cops be let go? Innocent people don't run. He was guilty of something. That doesn't justify being shot, but surely we don't just let the fastest murder suspects go. "Stop or I'll shoot" is justified in certain cases to protect public safety from imminent harm (like a violent criminal escaping).

It doesn't matter what his possible offenses might have been--he was shot in the back while unarmed and running away! I could understand it if the police see him commit some violent crime, they shout "stop or I'll shoot" and he doesn't stop but that doesn't apply here. He was stopped because he had a broken tail light.

On top of that the cop in question tried to plant a weapon on the body so he could claim "self defense". He just made every other cop's job more difficult and more dangerous because now other people are going to resist and oppose police out of fear that the cops will plant things on them like weapons or drugs as justification for violence during the process of arrest.

"Innocent people don't run" is logically equivalent to "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear". As noted, given recent cases of police putting people in jail until they sign over cash they are carrying or planting evidence after the face means that your innocence is irrelevant. Judges and juries still--for the most part--presume innocence until guilt is proven; police, on the other hand, presume that you are guilty until you are proven innocent. In other words, whether you run or not they think you are guilty until the evidence exonerates you. The key, though, is the planting of evidence--you may indeed be innocent but if a cop is planting evidence now the evidence states that you are guilty.

Consider: you get pulled over late at night for something trivial--tail light out, missing headlight, going 6 mph over the speed limit, anything like that. Cop asks to search your trunk, a request to which you comply because you know you have nothing back there. Cop looks in trunk then pulls out a gun which had been used to rob a bank. Can you prove the gun isn't yours? No, of course you can't. You don't have the paperwork for the gun because you didn't buy it, therefore it was given to you, you stole it, or you bought it from the back of some guy's truck last week for $100 cash no questions asked. Okay--gun residue test. No residue...so you wore gloves which you ditched somewhere along your route; the gloves will never be found (primarily because they don't exist). Where's the money? You stashed it and your protestations of "I didn't steal any money" is just a way to keep the money hidden until you or your cohorts can get to it.

Now consider: late at night, either already asleep or getting ready for bed, and *bam* SWAT is breaking down your door to execute a no-knock warrant. Sure, the address is incorrect so they aren't they were supposed to be but now your dog, barking at someone coming into the house, is dead. They had to taze you because you shouted at them before you realized who they were. The fact that they obtained entry via the no-knock means they have the legal right to look through your entire house and add charges for anything they might find, even if what they find isn't listed on the warrant. Oh....that kilo of marijuana they found has to be yours because why else would it be at your house?

Yes, both scenarios hinge on some cop planting evidence but if we can't trust them not to--and given the video evidence in this case we know that some of them are willing to do so--then where does that leave us? They presume we are guilty so do we dare to trust them first? No, the police need to be the ones to back off first because they are the ones escalating the tension. I would rather risk a few people who are actually guilty successfully completing their criminal schemes than to have the jack-booted thugs maintaining law and order from behind their mirrored shades by making all of us too afraid to do anything which might arouse their suspicion.

Truth be told, if I were a black man my first instinct would be to run from the cops regardless of their skin color.

[Zarathustra]

It doesn't matter what his possible offenses might have been--he was shot in the back while unarmed and running away! I could understand it if the police see him commit some violent crime, they shout "stop or I'll shoot" and he doesn't stop but that doesn't apply here. He was stopped because he had a broken tail light.

On top of that the cop in question tried to plant a weapon on the body so he could claim "self defense".

Yeah, I agree ... if all that is true. But is "the cop tried to plant a weapon" a claim like "Michael Brown had his hands up"? Is it an established fact, or just an urban legend?

All I'm saying is that we should let the process play out. I think the cop will be convicted. You wouldn't even need a video in this case. It should be clear that he was shot from the back at a distance merely from the autopsy.

"Innocent people don't run" is logically equivalent to "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear".

No, it's not the same. If you're innocent, it's actually good advice not to run, and therefore those who do run are either criminally stupid or guilty. Either way, they're wrong. Remember, resisting arrest is still a crime, even if you're innocent of the charge you're being arrest for.

However, if you have nothing to hide, you still have good reason to fear. So, not logically equivalent at all.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Yeah, I agree ... if all that is true. But is "the cop tried to plant a weapon" a claim like "Michael Brown had his hands up"? Is it an established fact, or just an urban legend?

It's on the video--he can be seen placing something on the ground at the body...at least according to the sources I have found. Still having some difficulty finding a link to the video itself. It is damning enough that his own police department fired him.

[finn]

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/27010521/wh ... black-man/

Is this link not working?

[Avatar]

It works.

--A

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Is this link not working?

Yes, it works. How did I miss that earlier? *shrug* Oh, wait--I have been jumping through other people's hoops all week getting all my paperwork and numbers together to finalize the close on the house purchase *and* we have been short one guy at work for most of the week.

[finn]

Excuses, excuses...... sigh

[ussusimiel]

The autopsy has confirmed that Scott died of multiple gunshot wounds to the back and has ruled the death a homicide.

If the evidence continues to mount up like this the police officer involved, if convicted of murder, could face the death penalty.

u.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Fuck your breath..

Authorities have released body-camera video showing the shooting of a black suspect by an elderly white reserve sheriff's deputy during a recent arrest in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Authorities say the shooter was 73-year-old Robert Bates, and that he meant to use his stun gun.

The video of the April 2 incident shows a Tulsa County deputy chase and tackle 44-year-old Eric Harris, whom they accuse of trying to sell an illegal gun to an undercover officer.

While the deputy is subduing Harris on the ground, a gunshot rings out and a man says, "Oh, I shot him. I'm sorry."

Harris screams, "He shot me. Oh my God," and a deputy replies: "You fucking ran. Shut the fuck up."

Harris then complains that he is losing his breath, to which a deputy replies, "Fuck your breath.” One of the officers restrains the shot and bleeding Harris with a knee on his head, the video shows.

I presume that the reserve deputy, being 73, had a history of being in law enforcement and these days being in your 70s means you are still generally healthy enough to keep working (either because you want to or because you have to) but that sheriff's office might want to rethink its decision to put him in the field. He claims that he mistakenly drew his real gun when he meant to draw his taser. What happens when he makes that mistake again? How many times has he already made that mistake? The suspect in this case apparently lived but he could have easily died--this kind of mistake is potentially lethal.

The other unnamed deputy, though, is the one who takes the cake with his flippant "fuck your breath". In other words, he didn't care whether the suspect lived or died.

[Vraith]

The autopsy has confirmed that Scott died of multiple gunshot wounds to the back and has ruled the death a homicide.

If the evidence continues to mount up like this the police officer involved, if convicted of murder, could face the death penalty.

u.

The if and could matter quite a lot, though. But his odds of facing the death penalty are nearly indistinguishable from zero.
The likeliest outcome is he pleads to a lesser charge, gets a max sentence of 15 years, actually serves about 5 in a nice safe and cushy place. That's the worst [for him] I see happening.
The chances that he does no time at all are probably greater than the chances of anything like life [or death penalty].
[[[though something I heard today might work against him, if true---that a second cop lied in his report to make himself and Slager look better...and that Slager can be heard laughing on tape about the adrenaline rush of the incident.]]]

[ussusimiel]

I agree, Vraith, that the death penalty is unlikely, and that a conviction for a lesser charge is very likely. It seems that the two men tussled before the shooting, which, because it is a police officer involved, will give the defence enough to counter the murder charge. However, under most other circumstances, IMO, this kind of evidence would lead to a murder conviction.

u.

[finn]

............ and another one bites the dust.

You'd be forgiven for confusing this as reality TV in the same vein as the alligator wranglers excepting that one group is trying to capture its subject without undue harm or stress and the other is the police.

[Vraith]

However, under most other circumstances, IMO, this kind of evidence would lead to a murder conviction.

u.

I believe you are correct, it would.
The fact that it is unlikely to do so in THIS case is the problem.
Even WITH the tape, punishment will be light to non-existent [[probably---circumstances/evidence beyond the ordinary might be surfacing, although it's hard to trust anything in any media in this kind of shit nowadays]].
WITHOUT the tape [which is sheer chance] the guy would probably still be on the job right this second. At WORST he'd be enjoying a nice paid vacation.

[Avatar]

GF saw this on the news and asked me what the hell was happening over there...seems like all you hear about is another cop shooting another "suspect."

--A

[Hashi Lebwohl]

More details in the Tulsa case now. The reserve deputy is going to be charged with second-degree manslaughter.

Oklahoma prosecutors have charged a sheriff’s reserve deputy with second-degree manslaughter in the fatal shooting of an unarmed African-American man in Tulsa. Robert Bates — who is white — says he mistakenly used his handgun instead of his stun gun, killing the victim, Eric Harris. Video from the Oklahoma sheriff’s department shows police officers exiting their cars and chasing Harris. After officers catch up to Harris and bring him to the ground, an officer calls out the word "Taser" twice, before firing a single, fatal shot. When Harris says, "I’m losing my breath," an officer responds, "BLEEP your breath." On Monday, Eric Harris’ brother, Andre Harris, spoke out about the case.

Eric Harris: "If he had as much training as he supposedly had, he would definitely know a 357 from a Taser. This is something that either he didn’t really think about, or he just decided that he just wanted to shoot, and he would worry about it later."

If found guilty, Bates’ second-degree manslaughter charge would likely mean a sentence of two and four years in prison. Bates is a wealthy insurance executive and heavy donor to the Tulsa police department, who gets to volunteer on the force as a reserve.

Oh, crap. I thought he was a semi-retired police officer or sheriff's deputy who was just helping out for some part-time pay or to cover a shift when someone else needs a day off. No, this reality is much worse--he is a old, bored, rich, white guy who wants to play cops & robbers. Who thought this was a good idea? Let's interview them on the nightly news and ask them.

What is happening here, Avatar, is closely related to the "militarization of the police" thread. Too many police officers either wanted to be in the military and couldn't cut it, washed out of the military for one reason or another, or are retired military but miss carrying a gun on their hip. Coupled with all the military hand-me-downs the DHS has been handing out like Santa Claus and many police forces are essentially equal to the military. All these testosterone-laden military wannabes then get it into their head that they are the law and many of the younger ones grew up watching shows like Cops for years so their idea of "law enforcement" means "chasing down and apprehending suspects". It doesn't help when the majority of the law enforcement community closes ranks and backs up the story "unfortunately the suspect was shot while violently resisting arrest".

No, not all cops are bad but this is certainly one area where old adage "one rotten apple spoils the whole barrel" is true. You cannot tell which cops are over the edge merely by looking at them. Only through their actions can the rotten ones be found.

[finn]

Is Tulsa anywhere near Keystone?

Perhaps the lack of training meant that there was less opportunity to practice seeing past the facial obstruction of a big red nose and moving about with size #140 shoes on.

[Avatar]

No, not all cops are bad but this is certainly one area where old adage "one rotten apple spoils the whole barrel" is true. You cannot tell which cops are over the edge merely by looking at them. Only through their actions can the rotten ones be found.

Agreed. You should see the issues we have with police corruption here...

--A

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Speaking of police corruption, there just so happens to be a little of it going on in the Tulsa case.

In Oklahoma, the Tulsa World newspaper reports supervisors at the Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office were ordered to falsify the training records of a reserve deputy charged with manslaughter for the fatal shooting of unarmed African American Eric Harris. Robert Bates is a wealthy insurance executive who donated heavily to the Tulsa police department. At least three of Bates’ supervisors were reportedly transferred after refusing to falsify his training and certification records.

Wow. His donations bought him officials who had enough power to transfer supervisors who didn't play along and give him little gold stars to show that he was "tough enough" to be a true-blue deputy.

So....three people got transferred for not falsifying records as they were told to but how many people did falsify the records?