Sapiens; A brief History of Humankind

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Sapiens; A brief History of Humankind

Post by peter »

Don't know if anyone else has come across this slightly odd take on human history by Yuval Noah Harari, who spcialises in World History at the Hebrew University of jerusalem.

Harari briefly touches upon two conflicting theories as to what happened to our humanoid brothers and sisters ie thw question as to why there were numbers of different members of the Homo genus, and now there is just one. The 'replacement' theory has it that we killed out all the opposition as we encountered them, with denisovians and neanderthals going to the wall in the face of sapiens greater agression and intelligence. The 'interbreeding' theory [which Harari says is gaining significant ground as modern mapping tecniques compare the genetic material of Africans, Europeans and Asians with those of our brother and sister geni] has it that we merely [at least to a degree] absorbed the other Homo varieties by interbreeding whenever we encountered them. That our three major 'types' possibly being reflective of genetic differences going back tens of thousands of years, is of potentially 'political dynamite' levels of significance is not lost on Harari; he absolutely recognises the potential for abuse of such types of study and makes it clear he does so.

He also discusses the idea of a 'cognitive revolution' that apparently occured between 70 and 100,000 years ago that saw a major change inb the way different parts of the brain could communicate with each other and which seems to be the crucial development that projected us above our rival Homo geni in respect of our cognitive abilities. The first thing this enabled was development of language that was capable of carrying much more information. Where previously we could say "Watch out - Lion!", now we could say "I saw a lion by the bend in the river this morning but now I think it's gone." Once we could do this we could do two other crucial things. First we could gossip. Trivial it seems but Harari believes gossip is so fundamental to what makes us us that still to this day we all do it nearly all the time. It's what allows us to form bigger groups that still cohere; a 'jungle' network of proto-journalists who spread word about who could be trusted, who could not, what to expect from this person or that etc, etc. In this way we could form larger groups without the need to intimately know every member. Group size was expanded even further as a result of one final development that our new brains gave us - the ability to believe in totally imagined things, things that have no basis in reality whatsoever; Gods. The development of shared delusions allowed for connection with disparate groups of individuals who in the past would only ever have been viewed as enemies. Now there was a cultural connection that allowed for safe gathering even among groups whose activities and manners differed widely in all other respects. "They're OK - they follow our God too" became the mantra that allowed for almost uinlimited connectivity between human beings - a faculty never seen before anywhere in the animal kingdom and one that serves us well to this day. Human rights, says Harari, fall into this catagory. They don't have any objective existance outside our imagination. We're not born equal and we never were. Capitalism is another such imaginary binding medium - the one that holds the whole world together today and no less a religion than Catholicicism or Sun-worship before it.

Harari slaughters many sacred cows on his journey through history [not least his brutal description of what we do to animals to ensure our supply of cheap food] and at the end finishes up where we are today. We will, he says become Gods. We'll conquer death, travel the Universe and know all there is to know - if we don't kill ourselves first. I'll leave you with his final passage;
We are more powerfull than ever before, but have very little idea of what to do with all that power. Worse still humans seem more irresponsible than ever. Self-made Gods with only the laws of physics to heep us company, we are accountable to no-one. We are wreaking havoc on our fellow animals and on the surrounding ecosystem, seeking little more than our own comfort and amusement, yet never finding satisfaction.
Is there anything more dangerous than dissatisfied Gods who don't know what they want?
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

He is mostly incorrect in his assessment. The reason that we have so little genetic diversity is because tens of thousands of years ago, by which I mean anywhere from 70,000 to 85,000 years ago, there were a couple of catastrophic, planet-changing volcanic eruptions which resulted in a mass extinction of early humans. Our distant ancestors were the lucky ones who managed to find sufficient shelter and food to make it through and slowly rebuild their population. Some researchers have examined the rate of mitochondrial DNA mutation, which is considerably slower than regular DNA mutation, and the evidence seems to point to some sort of "bottleneck" about 75,000 years ago.

Although I would like to think that whatever society or civilization our distant ancestors was at least as advanced as our known "ancient" cultures, there is no evidence of any sort of city-based society from that time frame. The oldest known cities we have found thus far don't date past something like 9,000 BC. To put that in perspective, recall that the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt occurred about 3100 BC, a mere 5,115 years ago, while Catal Huyuk reached a peak about 7,000 BC and evidence of settlements in/around Jericho date back to 9,000 BC--the first pharaohs are closer to us than they are to early settlers in Jericho.

My favorite pet hypothesis is that our truly distant ancestors settled Antarctica back before it became covered with several kilometers of ice but any evidence of their existence will have been ground out of existence by the weight of that ice.
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Post by Vraith »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:He is mostly incorrect in his assessment. The reason that we have so little genetic diversity is because tens of thousands of years ago, by which I mean anywhere from 70,000 to 85,000 years ago, there were a couple of catastrophic, planet-changing volcanic eruptions which resulted in a mass extinction of early humans

and the evidence seems to point to some sort of "bottleneck" about 75,000 years ago.

My favorite pet hypothesis is that our truly distant ancestors settled Antarctica back before it became covered with several kilometers of ice but any evidence of their existence will have been ground out of existence by the weight of that ice.
There is decent evidence for that bottleneck sometime around then...I wasn't aware the cause [eruptions] was known?
OTOH, there is also evidence [indirect physical] that the structure of the brain also changed around the same time [geological time "around"...could be 10 or 20k or 30k years of space]

It would be cool if ancestors had been to Antarctica---but, if memory is right, they really would be "distant," cuz I think the last warm-enough period was around 3 million years ago?? and that one is only a possibility?? been a lot longer than that since we are pretty sure it was habitable.

Anyway...it sounds like the guy has some interesting thoughts, though perhaps a bit too pessimistic??...I'll have to look around a bit.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Well, it isn't "known" that volcanic eruptions were the cause but they could easily bring about the correct circumstances. Check out the article on the Toba Catastrophe Theory (even thought it should be called "hypothesis" since it isn't testable).

Yes, it has been millions of years since any significant plant life existed on Antarctica. I still like my pet hypothesis even though it has no basis in fact. Perhaps my time frame is incorrect and our proto-human ancestors existed there 5 M years ago....but even I can't buy into that one.
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Post by peter »

Harai says the evidence is mounting for at least some degree of interbreeding, most significantly about 70,000 years ago when H.sapiens spread out from Africa and into the Middle-East and Europe, where they would have met, and to some extent at least, interbred with the indigenous neanderthal population that was already present. The same would have happened in Asia and the far East with the established H. erectus populations. He goes on saying that the prevailing view of 'replacement' was widely held by paleo-anthropologists [certainly not wishing to open a 'raceism' can of worms].....
But that came to an end in 2010 when the results of a four year effort to map the neanderthal genome were published. Geneticists were able to collect enough intact neanderthal DNA to make a broad comparison between it and the DNA of contemporary humans. The results stunned the scientific community.
It turned out that 1-4% of the unique human DNA of modern populations in the Middle East and Europe is Neanderthal DNA. [.....] A second shock came several months later, when DNA extracted from the fossilised finger from Denisova was mapped. The results proved that up to 6% of the unique human DNA of modern Melanesians and Aboriginal Australians is Denisovan DNA.
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Yes, it has been millions of years since any significant plant life existed on Antarctica. I still like my pet hypothesis even though it has no basis in fact. Perhaps my time frame is incorrect and our proto-human ancestors existed there 5 M years ago....but even I can't buy into that one.
Rumor tells that the last Neanderthals of Europe discovered a fleeting land-bridge to Antarctica and live in secret tunnels beneath the cyclopean layers of elder-ice even today...
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Post by Avatar »

Yes, the genetic bottleneck is pretty established...entire world population dropped to below 10k or something IIRC.

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Post by peter »

But would it preclude the 'interbreeding theory'. The DNA evidence is going to be hard to refute, even if it is somewhat 'uncomfortable'. I rather like the idea that our now being all of one type might be as much down to our capacity to love as our capacity to hate.
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

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Post by Vraith »

peter wrote:But would it preclude the 'interbreeding theory'. The DNA evidence is going to be hard to refute, even if it is somewhat 'uncomfortable'. I rather like the idea that our now being all of one type might be as much down to our capacity to love as our capacity to hate.
No, the bottleneck wouldn't refute it---it's more a matter of us working out the precise timing and effects, because it seems that both did happen.
Perhaps what caused the bottle wasn't as deadly for our cousins.
Perhaps the reason we're so little of them, instead of 50/50 DNA is cuz though very few of us survived, even fewer of them did.
I doubt either of those...but I'm sure once the details are known more precisely, it will work out.
If one of them has to go away, it would probably be the bottleneck.


But I would say there is something wrong with how they're talking the DNA numbers. Either being misstated, or peeps are misinterpreting it. I don't see the racism worry.
If I have the numbers right, all humans share 99.9%
So we're talking [at MOST] 6% of .1%.
And [dirty math]---each individual has roughly 3 million genes difference from everyone else. The difference between races is only 180,000. [assuming the high number, it's likely less than half that...]
And, to make a racist claim and justify it, you'd have to explain why the whites [or Asians, or whatever group] got all the GOOD stuff. [that's what makes them superior in this argument---and it doesn't need to stay just argument---test them and PROVE they got the good stuff.]
And then I'D say "So, you are a superior human cuz your ancestors were screwing Non-human things??
You see who the "mud-people" are, here, right?
That kind of amuses me.
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the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
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the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

Frostheart Grueburn wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Yes, it has been millions of years since any significant plant life existed on Antarctica. I still like my pet hypothesis even though it has no basis in fact. Perhaps my time frame is incorrect and our proto-human ancestors existed there 5 M years ago....but even I can't buy into that one.
Rumor tells that the last Neanderthals of Europe discovered a fleeting land-bridge to Antarctica and live in secret tunnels beneath the cyclopean layers of elder-ice even today...
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn :twisted:
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Post by Avatar »

Great, now I have Metallica in my head. :D

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Post by peter »

In fairness V., it may be me skewing what Harari has written to a large degree. he does stress that the work is at a way to early stage for definative results to be seen and that the actual %'s are of pretty low significance. I think the main worry he has is the way such work is open to 'twisting' for unhealthy ends by those whose bent is already in this direction. The interesting thing about the 'interbreeding theory to me is how it introduces the possibility that speciation can be occuring as a given group spreads out over a wider range of habitats - and then be pulled back just before reaching the 'brink' [threshold] beyond which production of fertile offspring can occur. The very 'plasticity' of a process that we all see as always ongoing is an interesting new take on the process.

Harari is a historian I think rather than an anthropologist and to some degree this comes across in his works. His casual use of the 'binomial system' was almost painfull to me - a purist in all matters taxonomical [ ;) ]. The title alone somewhat causes a slight abrasion of my sensibilities! :lol: - but the ideas are undeniably interesting [especially his depiction of the capitalist system as having all the attributes of a religion; gosh I wish Z. would read that! :lol: ].
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....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
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Post by Vraith »

peter wrote: be pulled back just before reaching the 'brink' [threshold] beyond which production of fertile offspring can occur. The very 'plasticity' of a process that we all see as always ongoing is an interesting new take on the process.
There is a Piers Anthony novel, Macroscope,---one of his semi-rare journeys into non-punny, kinda-hard-ish SF--- which, among other things, involves the remixing of the races. I have to re-read it, but IIRC, it had quite a few sub-plots/themes of interest and was a damn good book. I assume the science is out of date by now.

And I've heard that in some parts of New England they're starting to have a problem because coyotes [and some escaped dogs] have been pushed into wolf territory, and are having some success interbreeding.
That's a problem cuz wolves are bigger, better hunters---but they're kinda "shy" normally. Dogs and coyotes are NOT shy. So the cross breeds are big, pack-hunting predator/scavengers that are not at all retiring.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Rawedge Rim wrote:
Frostheart Grueburn wrote: Rumor tells that the last Neanderthals of Europe discovered a fleeting land-bridge to Antarctica and live in secret tunnels beneath the cyclopean layers of elder-ice even today...
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn :twisted:
Be careful with that--you may get Their attention.

It is only a matter of time before we have another bottleneck--large meteor impact, a truly global pandemic, or something of that nature--and our descendants will have even less diversity than we have today. We will wind up being like cheetahs.
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote:
Frostheart Grueburn wrote: Rumor tells that the last Neanderthals of Europe discovered a fleeting land-bridge to Antarctica and live in secret tunnels beneath the cyclopean layers of elder-ice even today...
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn :twisted:
Be careful with that--you may get Their attention.

It is only a matter of time before we have another bottleneck--large meteor impact, a truly global pandemic, or something of that nature--and our descendants will have even less diversity than we have today. We will wind up being like cheetahs.
Up until we came along, cheetas were fairly widespread throughout the world, including North America (of course so were mammoths, mastadons, cave bears, sabre-toothed cats, and a host of other very large critters, who apparantly could not defend themselves from the BBQ)
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

That is why it probably won't be some sort of natural disaster that forces us into another bottleneck, but that is probably a discussion for another thread.
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Post by Zarathustra »

peter wrote:...his depiction of the capitalist system as having all the attributes of a religion; gosh I wish Z. would read that! :lol:
All memes that are successful at getting themselves replicated will be successful for similar reasons. This does not mean that capitalism has 'all the attributes of religion.' It doesn't have the supernatural assumptions. It doesn't have the dogmatic control of individuals' lives, but rather stresses freedom. It doesn't work by top-down enforcement from authority figures, its works from bottom-up reasons which tap into people's ambition and potential (and yes, greed). And it does not enforce prohibitions against criticism, questioning, and hence error correction.

This sounds like a really interesting book and topic.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Zarathustra wrote:It doesn't work by top-down enforcement from authority figures
Except when industry insiders draft legislation which skews the playing field in their favor then shop around until they can find a politician willing to submit the proposal to committee or when they can successfully realize a little ROI by having their person in Congress attach a little pork onto pending legislation.

No, it doesn't enforce prohibitions against criticism but anyone who criticizes any aspect of capitalism is typically referred to as a "socialist" or "communist" or "99 percenter", presuming that their sanity itself isn't questioned.

If capitalism is inherently error-correcting then why weren't certain types of transactions such as credit default swaps or repackaging/reselling mortgages made illegal, given that such activities helped lead to the market drop in 2008?

I concur--that would make an interesting book.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:It doesn't work by top-down enforcement from authority figures
Except when industry insiders draft legislation which skews the playing field in their favor then shop around until they can find a politician willing to submit the proposal to committee or when they can successfully realize a little ROI by having their person in Congress attach a little pork onto pending legislation.

No, it doesn't enforce prohibitions against criticism but anyone who criticizes any aspect of capitalism is typically referred to as a "socialist" or "communist" or "99 percenter", presuming that their sanity itself isn't questioned.

If capitalism is inherently error-correcting then why weren't certain types of transactions such as credit default swaps or repackaging/reselling mortgages made illegal, given that such activities helped lead to the market drop in 2008?

I concur--that would make an interesting book.
Sounds like you're talking about crony capitalism. I wasn't.

Error correction is built into the system every single time you choose not to buy a product. Even with crony capitalism, no one forces you to buy their stuff. If error correction wasn't built in, we wouldn't see technological progress. Progress is only possible by overcoming the mistakes and limits of the past. And this is only possible in systems that encourage criticism.

That's why religion is still debating fables like Original Sin, while capitalism is transforming our world. Capitalism isn't religion.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Zarathustra wrote:Sounds like you're talking about crony capitalism. I wasn't.
Yes, I was. Capitalism is great but crony capitalism threatens to destabilize the entire system...but we'll pick that back up in the Tank.

No, capitalism isn't a religion. That being said, every now and then some talking head on an industry analysis show says something that makes it sound that way.

*************

It is a shame that our distant ancestors didn't leave more written records of their existence. We wouldn't suffer with such a lack of knowledge of them today, leaving us to try and second-guess or reverse-engineer them.
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