What do people think "it"/"they" (the 'most important thing(s)' for people to know) are?
And no, this is not one of those questions one asks to get someone to ask them back, "What about you?"
I actually am looking for a sense of what other people would say "it" is / "they" are... I suspect there may be major things that are part of the currents of today's thought... and which are important to a huge number of people.. but which I've managed to be pretty oblivious to.
"The most important thing(s)" you wish people knew
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Linna Heartbooger
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Hashi Lebwohl
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Zarathustra
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I disagree with everyone's answers so far, but I don't know if Linna wants this to be a debate thread.
I think first we have to decide what are the most important things to achieve, before we can decide the most important things to know. Personally, I don't think joy or nice feelings between people are the most important things in our world. Those are luxuries, and I think it's a sign that we live such pampered lives that we have time to worry about them. The state of affairs that makes us this pampered is infinitely more important ... and that state of affairs is all the progress we've achieved since the Enlightenment. So that's the direction I'd go in pinning down the most important things to know: all the lessons of the Enlightenment that makes that a dividing line in history.
Clearly, the survival of the human race is the single most important thing we can concern ourselves with. The only way to achieve this is in the long term is through increasing our knowledge. Therefore, the most important things to know are the things that allow and foster increases in knowledge, which is what the Enlightenment was. I've talked about it in many threads, but briefly, it's a tradition of rational criticism and error correction. Those are the most important things we can know. Everything 'evil' or merely bad about our existence can be alleviated by gaining enough knowledge to find a solution. Problems are soluble through knowledge. Every other attempt at a solution is merely pre-Enlightenment naivete.
I think first we have to decide what are the most important things to achieve, before we can decide the most important things to know. Personally, I don't think joy or nice feelings between people are the most important things in our world. Those are luxuries, and I think it's a sign that we live such pampered lives that we have time to worry about them. The state of affairs that makes us this pampered is infinitely more important ... and that state of affairs is all the progress we've achieved since the Enlightenment. So that's the direction I'd go in pinning down the most important things to know: all the lessons of the Enlightenment that makes that a dividing line in history.
Clearly, the survival of the human race is the single most important thing we can concern ourselves with. The only way to achieve this is in the long term is through increasing our knowledge. Therefore, the most important things to know are the things that allow and foster increases in knowledge, which is what the Enlightenment was. I've talked about it in many threads, but briefly, it's a tradition of rational criticism and error correction. Those are the most important things we can know. Everything 'evil' or merely bad about our existence can be alleviated by gaining enough knowledge to find a solution. Problems are soluble through knowledge. Every other attempt at a solution is merely pre-Enlightenment naivete.
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
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Zarathustra
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I can't help myself ... Linna, if you don't want debate in this thread, let me know and I'll cut it out. But for now:
This kind of thinking only applies to people who are already predisposed to treat you the way you want to be treated, because that's how they want to be treated, too. In other words, this won't solve 90% of the planet's problems, because it only works in situations where there's no significant problem.
Even in our own country, I can't imagine a single social issue that could be solved this way. I want people to leave me alone and let me make my own fate in life; I don't want the government to solve my problems (or even try). That's how *I* want to be treated. Do you think that all the people who expect the government to solve their problems want to be treated this way, too?
I don't mean to offend or be "mean," and I know it's not very humble (i.e. concepts which also solve very few problems), but I have to say: this is how children reason. It's kindergarten morality, solutions to keep kids from stealing each others' crayons. It doesn't work in the adult world of nuclear missiles and terrorism. It won't solve even 1% of our problems.
Hashi, you can't believe this. Please tell me you don't. Do you honestly think that if we treat Russia the way we'd like to be treated, that they'll stop invading other countries? Do you think if we treated ISIS like the way we'd want to be treated, they'll stop enslaving and torturing children?Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Phrased differently, treat other people the way you want to be treated.
If put into practice by everyone on the planet then 90% of our current problems would be solved.
This kind of thinking only applies to people who are already predisposed to treat you the way you want to be treated, because that's how they want to be treated, too. In other words, this won't solve 90% of the planet's problems, because it only works in situations where there's no significant problem.
Even in our own country, I can't imagine a single social issue that could be solved this way. I want people to leave me alone and let me make my own fate in life; I don't want the government to solve my problems (or even try). That's how *I* want to be treated. Do you think that all the people who expect the government to solve their problems want to be treated this way, too?
I don't mean to offend or be "mean," and I know it's not very humble (i.e. concepts which also solve very few problems), but I have to say: this is how children reason. It's kindergarten morality, solutions to keep kids from stealing each others' crayons. It doesn't work in the adult world of nuclear missiles and terrorism. It won't solve even 1% of our problems.
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
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Hashi Lebwohl
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The principle is simple, yes, but it applies only to individuals rather than corporations or nations. If I treat other people with respect and equity, expecting the same in return, and the other person is also treating me with respect and equity then any of our other differences become irrelevant and we don't have any problems with one another. At the conclusion of our business or other interaction we go our separate ways.
Once it becomes apparent that someone--a member of the IS, a pistolero from a cartel, or whatever--wants to continue their involvement in activities which are detrimental to life or civility then we treat them, at best, like something to be shunned and we leave them alone or, at worst, like a rabid dog and we put them down.
As far as the people who want the government to solve their problems for them....well, we very well can't go around and allowing people continue to want irrational or illogical things. The purpose of government is not to give you food when you have none or to provide for your retirement because you failed to save any money. The purpose of government is to provide for protection from the criminal element in society, to provide protection from foreign military incursions, to prevent abuses of the system by individuals or corporations, and to provide the framework of society in which you are free to engage in your work or leisure activities as long as those activities are not actively causing harm to someone else.
I didn't think I would have to explain it that much but apparently I was mistaken. I thought the concept was self-evident.
Incidentally, how do you know that treating other people the way you wish to be treated doesn't work? Where is your experiment group that shows its failure as a social experiment? I wager that the average Muslim (or person from any group, choose a different one at random if you prefer) wants pretty much the same things you want: the freedom to practice their religion (even if your choice is "none of the above"), the freedom to engage in gainful employment, education for their children, the freedom to have a home and to have it protected from being buglarized, etc.
The reason we have many of the problems we have right now are because the people who have political power want what they want and anyone else's desires, including those of the people whom they ostensibly represent, be damned. If Putin treated other people and/or countries the way he wants himself and Russia to be treated then things wouldn't have happened in Ukraine like they did.
The original question was "what do I think the most important thing people should know is?". I answered the question. As I look back at your response I can see that your main point and answer--aside from first disagreeing with everyone for no apparent reason--appears to be "the most important things to know are the things that allow and foster increases in knowledge", which doesn't really answer the question. What are these things? You didn't list anything, just a vague generality. If we give every person in the world a sufficiently large USB stick with all accumulated scientific knowledge, as well as a computer upon which to access the data, will the world suddenly become a better place? "Problems are soluable through knowledge." Which knowledge is needed to end the violence of the IS? Is there some key piece of information we are missing that would allow us to end them and groups like them once and for all?
Clearly, the ways in which we have been trying to address these problems are not working so perhaps it is time for a different approach. The foundation for solving the world's problems begins with mutual respect between any two random people. This lack of respect leads to detrimental activities ranging from the minor ones such as lying or trying to cheat the other person all the way to truly awful offenses such as enslavement or murder.
Incidentally, no offense but you don't have what it takes to offend me. Rather, you don't know *how* to offend me. Critiquing my statements isn't the way to go about it, if that is a goal you wish to pursue (and I know that it isn't).
Now...if I were going to offend I would go about it thusly:
That really isn't very offensive, though.
Once it becomes apparent that someone--a member of the IS, a pistolero from a cartel, or whatever--wants to continue their involvement in activities which are detrimental to life or civility then we treat them, at best, like something to be shunned and we leave them alone or, at worst, like a rabid dog and we put them down.
As far as the people who want the government to solve their problems for them....well, we very well can't go around and allowing people continue to want irrational or illogical things. The purpose of government is not to give you food when you have none or to provide for your retirement because you failed to save any money. The purpose of government is to provide for protection from the criminal element in society, to provide protection from foreign military incursions, to prevent abuses of the system by individuals or corporations, and to provide the framework of society in which you are free to engage in your work or leisure activities as long as those activities are not actively causing harm to someone else.
I didn't think I would have to explain it that much but apparently I was mistaken. I thought the concept was self-evident.
Incidentally, how do you know that treating other people the way you wish to be treated doesn't work? Where is your experiment group that shows its failure as a social experiment? I wager that the average Muslim (or person from any group, choose a different one at random if you prefer) wants pretty much the same things you want: the freedom to practice their religion (even if your choice is "none of the above"), the freedom to engage in gainful employment, education for their children, the freedom to have a home and to have it protected from being buglarized, etc.
The reason we have many of the problems we have right now are because the people who have political power want what they want and anyone else's desires, including those of the people whom they ostensibly represent, be damned. If Putin treated other people and/or countries the way he wants himself and Russia to be treated then things wouldn't have happened in Ukraine like they did.
The original question was "what do I think the most important thing people should know is?". I answered the question. As I look back at your response I can see that your main point and answer--aside from first disagreeing with everyone for no apparent reason--appears to be "the most important things to know are the things that allow and foster increases in knowledge", which doesn't really answer the question. What are these things? You didn't list anything, just a vague generality. If we give every person in the world a sufficiently large USB stick with all accumulated scientific knowledge, as well as a computer upon which to access the data, will the world suddenly become a better place? "Problems are soluable through knowledge." Which knowledge is needed to end the violence of the IS? Is there some key piece of information we are missing that would allow us to end them and groups like them once and for all?
Clearly, the ways in which we have been trying to address these problems are not working so perhaps it is time for a different approach. The foundation for solving the world's problems begins with mutual respect between any two random people. This lack of respect leads to detrimental activities ranging from the minor ones such as lying or trying to cheat the other person all the way to truly awful offenses such as enslavement or murder.
Incidentally, no offense but you don't have what it takes to offend me. Rather, you don't know *how* to offend me. Critiquing my statements isn't the way to go about it, if that is a goal you wish to pursue (and I know that it isn't).
Now...if I were going to offend I would go about it thusly:
Incorrect, unless you have impulse control issues. You choose the way in which you respond to other people's comments.Zarathustra wrote:I can't help myself
That really isn't very offensive, though.
The Tank is gone and now so am I.
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SoulBiter
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It doesn't take money to be rich
or said another way
Some people are so poor, all they have is money.
If I had a second choice it would be:
What goes around comes around.
Which is just another way of backing into 'Do unto others"
or said another way
Some people are so poor, all they have is money.
If I had a second choice it would be:
What goes around comes around.
Which is just another way of backing into 'Do unto others"
We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch 
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Cagliostro
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Linna Heartbooger
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Z- argh, tough call that you ask for from me!
If I choose Door #1, and a raging flame-war ensues which results in nobody posting on the original question except ppl who already have, I'll regret it.
If I choose Door #2, and the thread quickly fades away in a boring death, I'll regret it.
Hmmmmmm!
I have to laugh, though!
You second post... "Oh, I can't help myself!" ...reminded me of this blogger would stay up all night arguing all night with a few particular people...
This was especially horrible when she had 8:30am glass-blowing class the next morning.
(It often resulted in burns.)
If I choose Door #1, and a raging flame-war ensues which results in nobody posting on the original question except ppl who already have, I'll regret it.
If I choose Door #2, and the thread quickly fades away in a boring death, I'll regret it.
Hmmmmmm!
I have to laugh, though!
You second post... "Oh, I can't help myself!" ...reminded me of this blogger would stay up all night arguing all night with a few particular people...
This was especially horrible when she had 8:30am glass-blowing class the next morning.
(It often resulted in burns.)
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Linna Heartbooger
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Well, I did, but...wayfriend wrote:BTW, I thought "you wish people knew" implied "but usually don't". For example, I didn't mention the Golden Rule because everyone seems to know it.
There's knowing and then there's knowing.
"People without hope not only don't write novels, but what is more to the point, they don't read them.
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
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Vraith
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Nah...in most cases [especially for the big easy ones like Golden Rule], there's "knowing" vs. "behaving," "excepting," "rationalizing," "hypocricizing" and "don't give a fuck--ing."Linna Heartlistener wrote:Well, I did, but...wayfriend wrote:BTW, I thought "you wish people knew" implied "but usually don't". For example, I didn't mention the Golden Rule because everyone seems to know it.
There's knowing and then there's knowing.
Peeps understand the Rule just fine, and see its likely efficacy if everyone did it...but they all have a but [that speaks in the voice, usually, similar to the butt].
Anyway...underneath that rule, [I'd say this is part of the ground it comes from], I'd like peeps to know [and live/act] this:
Respect is not a thing earned or given or granted or exchanged/traded for "worth" or anything of that. That kind of respect is nothing more than an assertion of power/control/dominance by one party or another.
Respect is a state/way of being in the world. It is emergent from awareness and understanding.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Fist and Faith
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I took the wording of the thread's title to mean something you want people to know that they don't know. The Golden Rule would not usually fall into that category. (Although I suppose many people know the words, but don't understand the meaning/how it would play out.) So here's what I wish everyone knew. I've posted these several times over the years. If you only read one, the first is, imo, the best wording:
In the true order of things one does not do something in order to be happy - one is happy and, hence, does something. One does not do some things in order to be compassionate, one is compassionate and, hence, acts in a certain way. The soul’s decision precedes the body’s action in a highly conscious person. Only an unconscious person attempts to produce a state of the soul through something the body is doing.
-Neale Donald Walsch's Conversations With God
I saw Dina at the party tonight. She smiled brightly and said, "This year I decided to give up suffering."
-Hugh Prather
A fool is “happy” when his cravings are satisfied. A warrior is happy without reason.
-Dan Millman's Way of the Peaceful Warrior
There is no way to happiness - happiness is the way.
-Buddha
Pleasures conceived in the world of the senses have a beginning and an end and give birth to misery, Arjuna. The wise do not look for happiness in them. But those who overcome the impulses of lust and anger which arise in the body are made whole and live in joy. They find their joy, their rest, and their light completely within themselves.
-Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita
Happiness is not a state to arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-Margaret Lee Runbeck
I honestly don't think most people view things that way, or have ever heard of trying to view things this way. And I don't pretend the cure for clinical depression is as easy as viewing things that way. But I think everyone should think along these lines as much as possible. I mean consciously think along these lines. Another quote that I can't find says something like "Be the same in pleasure as in pain." You can be sick, or in bed with a cast on your leg, and still be happy. You can enjoy the same foods you enjoy when you're healthy (assuming you're not nauseous). You still like the same songs. You can still be in awe of TCTC. Everyone should try to understand this, then try to live it.Oh, ho, listen, Man, and we'll tell you everything! Do you hear the waves whispering the secret? We know you know, Man. The secret of life is just sheer joy, and joy is everywhere. Joy is what we were made for. It is in the rush of the nighttime surf and in the beach rocks and in the salt and the air and in the water we breathe and deep, deep within the blood. And the sifting ocean sands and the wriggling silverfish and the hooded greens of the shallows and the purple deeps and in the oyster's crusty shell and the pink reefs and even in the muck of the ocean's floor, joy, joy, joy!
-Neverness
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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Vraith
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Intimately connected with Stoicism. [[which is much more positive, and less cold, than most peeps nowadays are aware of---the second half of what I'm about quote connects with the argument currently ongoing in free will thread].Fist and Faith wrote: Another quote that I can't find says something like "Be the same in pleasure as in pain."
in the words of Epictetus, "sick and yet happy, in peril and yet happy, dying and yet happy, in exile and happy, in disgrace and happy,"[7] thus positing a "completely autonomous" individual will, and at the same time a universe that is "a rigidly deterministic single whole"
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Mighara Sovmadhi
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I wish more people knew about transfinite numbers.
So many times I see arguments that involve premises like, "But humans/us/people/w/e are finite beings, so we can't really understand or apply concepts like eternity or transcendent meaning." However, the finite/infinite contrast we deal with in this context, is that of the elements of the set of positive rational numbers, on the one hand, and the entire set summed up in itself, on the other. To "step outside" of mortal time/non-eternity, then, would require being able to judge reality outside of the positive rational number line. (Or, supposedly, doing DMT, but who knows?) Maybe nothing in the physical universe satisfies the numerical order of aleph-723. So nothing in physical-mortal time is equivalent (equi-valent, literally) to aleph-723. However, we have a partial intuition of the existence of aleph-723ness, aleph-1,012ness, aleph-809,916,920,711ness, and so on. That is, these are not completely abstract functions, but individual objects on the aleph number line, so to speak. So the mere fact that we know the aleph number line, allows us to step outside of the positive rational number line, in our minds. Now, if our minds contain the aleph series, then, would we say our minds are finite? Would we say the humanity with this kind of mind, is finite? Or really are we infinite, as infinite as anything? (A given particle, say a proton, can be divided in space to infinity, in principle. When modern physicists speak of "fundamental particles," they just mean, "the farthest down the quantum rabbit hole we've gone so far.")
If, to an extent, everything is or can be infinite, then the meaning of the world does not depend on "transcending our finitude" or "escaping finitude" or whatever. It will depend on something else, something I don't know how to put into words just right now.
EDIT: Also I wish more people knew the role analytic philosophy played in the rise of modern digital computing. Then they'd see, "Philosophy has no practical value," to be as extremely, amusingly false as anything might be, maybe.
So many times I see arguments that involve premises like, "But humans/us/people/w/e are finite beings, so we can't really understand or apply concepts like eternity or transcendent meaning." However, the finite/infinite contrast we deal with in this context, is that of the elements of the set of positive rational numbers, on the one hand, and the entire set summed up in itself, on the other. To "step outside" of mortal time/non-eternity, then, would require being able to judge reality outside of the positive rational number line. (Or, supposedly, doing DMT, but who knows?) Maybe nothing in the physical universe satisfies the numerical order of aleph-723. So nothing in physical-mortal time is equivalent (equi-valent, literally) to aleph-723. However, we have a partial intuition of the existence of aleph-723ness, aleph-1,012ness, aleph-809,916,920,711ness, and so on. That is, these are not completely abstract functions, but individual objects on the aleph number line, so to speak. So the mere fact that we know the aleph number line, allows us to step outside of the positive rational number line, in our minds. Now, if our minds contain the aleph series, then, would we say our minds are finite? Would we say the humanity with this kind of mind, is finite? Or really are we infinite, as infinite as anything? (A given particle, say a proton, can be divided in space to infinity, in principle. When modern physicists speak of "fundamental particles," they just mean, "the farthest down the quantum rabbit hole we've gone so far.")
If, to an extent, everything is or can be infinite, then the meaning of the world does not depend on "transcending our finitude" or "escaping finitude" or whatever. It will depend on something else, something I don't know how to put into words just right now.
EDIT: Also I wish more people knew the role analytic philosophy played in the rise of modern digital computing. Then they'd see, "Philosophy has no practical value," to be as extremely, amusingly false as anything might be, maybe.
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Vraith
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We are finitely infinite. We cannot understand/apply all things eternal or transcendent...but we can beyond any doubt whatsoever understand/apply/transcend our own particular selves.Mighara Sovmadhi wrote: "But humans/us/people/w/e are finite beings, so we can't really understand or apply concepts like eternity or transcendent meaning.
"Or really are we infinite, as infinite as anything?
We may live in a cage, but it is not a box---there is space between the bars, a field of view.
And maybe even a means of escape, eventually.
How do you feel about surreal numbers?
I was recently reading a thing with this guy
He even has things on youtube.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.