The Secret of Immortality

[Esmer]

I'm immortal. I guess I've never mentioned it. And if, unthinkable though it may be, I'm wrong, your "Ha ha! You were wrong! You're dead!"s will fall on extremely deaf ears.

wise words, indeed!

The secret to immortality is being able not to die.

I knew I could count on you, Shakes! absolutely! but, more importantly, you have to know how not to die, eh? you need to know what that really means, for it to mean what it says, or mean anything at all, right?




definitely one of my all-time favs, tazz!

When yourr head comes away frrom yourr neck, it's ovah....

[Avatar]

I have no idea what this thread is supposed to be about.

Is there immortality? Depends which type you mean. If you mean your body continuing indefinitely, well, much as I like the idea, I find it highly unlikely. Almost as unlikely as the idea of your consciousness continuing indefinitely without the body.

I don't know if there's immortality of not, but as I've said before, I plan to live forever or die trying.

--A

[Zarathustra]

The first immortal generation of humans is already alive today. There are some of us who will live to see the life extension technologies of the middle 21st century, which will enable them to live to see the life extension technologies of the 22nd, 23rd, and so on.

There is no reason for humans to die other than the contingent fact that at one time, it benefitted the passing on of genes for old people to stop using resources young, reproducing people could be using. Everything about evolution has previously been about the continuance of genes--NOT individual organisms. But we are at the turning point where physical organisms are more than just gene-transmission vehicles. Now, the vehicles themselves matter, too (at least to those "vehicles"). I'm not at service to my genes, I want my genes to be at service to me. Why be a slave to contingency? Through the mechanisms of evolution, free will has been brought into the world. We humans are the turning point between the universe acting through blind forces and intentional, willed action. We are the universe becoming alive, aware of itself. And this awareness has allowed organisms (well, us) to figure out the secret to breaking the chains of slavery to our genes. Thus, immortality is NATURAL. Evolution has given us this ability. Death is programmed into our genes. All we have to do is edit the program.

As for whether or not we should want this . . . when do you decide it's a good day to die? What is noble about giving up on life? If living today is just fine, what's wrong with tomorrow? Why accept that you were only brought into being to die after excreting some genetic fluids into a woman (or accepting those fluids from a man) when a much larger destiny awaits your acceptance?

When immortality becomes a possibility, and death becomes voluntary, then every death will be an unecessary surrender, a defeat.

What if all the world's religions were right: there is a Heaven, there is a land of immortality. Except, rather than it being "out there," it is "until THEN," in the future. A utopian land of immortal beings doesn't lie beyond the clouds, but beyond the sunsets, in our future. And the "Last Days" really are upon us, because we are on the verge of entering Heaven. Except, it's not provided to us by the gods (unless you suppose they put this potential in our genes), but rather by ourselves. We are the gods. We will give ourselves immortality, endless life and power. All we have to do is accept our genetic destiny (or, "potential" if that word bothers you). Maybe there has been an interplay between our genetic potential for immortality--the intelligence which eventually leads to immortality--and the consciousness which yearns for it. Maybe this interplay has been the unconscious sensing of this future, this destiny. We've been creating stories about Heaven for millenia because we could sense it in our bones, in our DNA.

[Menolly]

As for whether or not we should want this . . . when do you decide it's a good day to die? What is noble about giving up on life? If living today is just fine, what's wrong with tomorrow? Why accept that you were only brought into being to die after excreting some genetic fluids into a woman (or accepting those fluids from a man) when a much larger destiny awaits your acceptance?

When immortality becomes a possibility, and death becomes voluntary, then every death will be an unecessary surrender, a defeat.

Isn't there a story about this? Where you go to Howard Johnson's and get pampered wonderfully by servers on the assumption you are there to voluntarily commit suicide?

[wayfriend]

The first immortal generation of humans is already alive today. There are some of us who will live to see the life extension technologies of the middle 21st century, which will enable them to live to see the life extension technologies of the 22nd, 23rd, and so on.

Thirty years ago, they promised me that anyone who lived to the year 2000 would become immortal due to advances in medicine.

Here I am.

[Cail]

I'm still waiting for the flying cars we were promised.

I don't want to be immortal. I think it'd get boring.

[Zarathustra]

Thirty years ago, they promised me that anyone who lived to the year 2000 would become immortal due to advances in medicine.

Here I am.

Yeah, and 30 years ago they were predicting global cooling. Sometimes predictions can be off a little. However, scientific advancement is happening at an exponential rate. Immortality is closer than you think.

[Zarathustra]

Cail, are you saying you've never been bored? Because, as far as I can tell, you're haven't killed yourself yet.

I think that given a couple centuries, you might find something you're interested in.

[Cail]

I have no desire to live for centuries unless I get my 25-year-old body back and I'm not going to get senile. And even still, I don't think I'd want to live for 300 years.

[Worm of Despite]

I feel immortal (probably cause I'm 21, heh).

But really, I think the best humans will ever do is extend life--not postpone its end entirely. And even if we do, we'll never be invincible. There’s so many factors that will override our lust for life: the earth dying with the sun, the universe's heat death, etc. Our energies belong to us for a very, very short time, and then they're bound back to the same fate as every star.

[Lord Mhoram]

I tried and failed to find a link, but there's a rather radical Oxford professor who believes that a human's lifespan will triple or double due to our advancements in technology, within the next 50 years or so.

[Worm of Despite]

We've been creating stories about Heaven for millenia because we could sense it in our bones, in our DNA.

Perhaps, but I'm not so sure. Humanity's idea of heaven has always been a loose one, defined by the times they live in. The early civilizations in the Ferticle Crescent, for example, had to put up with very irregular flooding and a generally precarious existence. Consequently, their idea of the afterlife was not very pleasing; the Gods were indifferent to humans, sometimes even annoyed by them (the God Enil started the Great Flood in the Atrahasis Epic because mankind made too much noise).

By contrast, the ancient Egyptians had a source of water with very predictable flooding (the Nile). And unlike the empires in the Crescent, they were isolated and very rarely invaded. It is suitable that their religion paints a world of far more stability; heck, they even allowed for the possibility of a good afterlife (albeit an exclusive one).

It just seems to me that our ideas of inner salvation, merciful creators, a blissful afterlife, etc., all increase as civilizations improve their living standard. Perhaps some day religion will no longer be needed, as mankind will establish so much comfort and pleasure through his own means/processes that he no longer has to turn to religion for spiritual void-filling. This seems to be happening to some extent, as the religious world is increasingly shrinking before the secular.

[Esmer]

When immortality becomes a possibility, and death becomes voluntary, then every death will be an unecessary surrender, a defeat.

This has always been so, since the beginning....

I have no idea what this thread is supposed to be about.

Is there immortality? Depends which type you mean. If you mean your body continuing indefinitely, well, much as I like the idea, I find it highly unlikely. Almost as unlikely as the idea of your consciousness continuing indefinitely without the body.

I don't know if there's immortality of not, but as I've said before, I plan to live forever or die trying.

--A

why, this is supposed to be about the secret of Immortality, Avatar. "You Cannot Die". Don't you believe it? And if you do believe it, do you understand it? Do you know how not to die? Do you believe their is a way not to die?

Fortunately for you, I'm not concerned at all with whether or not you can take my proposition seriously, and thus I will proceed to elucidate my points, in spite of your opposition, your disbelief, and your inability to understand what I am saying. Thus, as a teacher of sorcery, my endeavor is to describe the world to you. Your difficulty in grasping my concepts and methods will stem from the fact that the units of my description are alien and incompatible with those of your own.

Physical Immortality is impossible. Physical was meant to die, Spirit however is not physical, therefore not bound by the laws of physical organic matter, but bound by the laws that made those laws. Man may find a way to live longer, but billions of years? No way.....and who would want to live eternally in this shithole as a man?

Jesus said, "Whoever has come to understand the world has found (only) a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world."

Aaaahhh, good old Jesus...heh, watch 'em run, or turn to rend me asunder now, eh? I take this subject just as seriously as any other, if not more, but whose to say, really? Like I said, the most extravagant wisdom in the world means nothing, if you don't understand it, or believe it, OR ACT UPON IT.

Now, first of all, I am fully prepared to weather a storm of criticism, slurs, and even outrage at what I am about to discuss, but I have no choice now. This topic must be broached, and must be discussed now, with whomever chooses to, or feels they are interested enough to at least discuss this academically, and scientifically, as much as that is possible, dependent upon your ideas and definitions of those words of course....

Who wants to understand, or try to, the secret of Immortality? I know it sux to be you that someone like me may indeed know, or believe he knows, such a thing, but thats always the way, isn't it? It's not about religion, or the bible, or scientology either ...it's about humanity, the spirit, and a specific energetic configuration.

I really want, and expect, laughter, derision, ruthless, cruel, and vicious attacks against these statements, as well as insightful, indepth discussion, and with the Mod's permission, I would like to request a no holds barred rule on this thread, if possible.....I feel it is necessary to really explore this....not that I'm asking permision to respond that way in kind, but freedom of expression is critical here....

So, who wants to know the secret, and who wants people to know what a crock of crap this all is?

WHO?

[Worm of Despite]

Fortunately for you, I'm not concerned at all with whether or not you can take my proposition seriously, and thus I will proceed to elucidate my points, in spite of your opposition, your disbelief, and your inability to understand what I am saying. Thus, as a teacher of sorcery, my endeavor is to describe the world to you. Your difficulty in grasping my concepts and methods will stem from the fact that the units of my description are alien and incompatible with those of your own.

Physical Immortality is impossible. Physical was meant to die, Spirit however is not physical, therefore not bound by the laws of physical organic matter, but bound by the laws that made those laws.

If I die, I feel pretty darn sure that my source of awareness (the brain) might just decay, so I'd definitely prefer living as a man forever than being nothing forever. Of course, just my personal beliefs, as I don't subscribe to the idea of "Spirit" or any sentient energy in our bodies that might continue after death.

Man may find a way to live longer, but billions of years? No way.....and who would want to live eternally in this shithole as a man?

Well, by the time man has crafted a means to immortality, this "shithole" will have improved considerably, I'll wager, and man will find a prolonged (or infinite) existence to be far more appetizing than we currently view it.

[[Syl]]

Your thread. You don't need a mod's permission.

[Marv]

I believe.

(i had a post that was probably...hmmm... strike that...WAS the best post ever posted ever by anyone EVER but was destroyed by the evil bug that's infected the watch recently.HUMPH!!)

[Menolly]

As for whether or not we should want this . . . when do you decide it's a good day to die? What is noble about giving up on life? If living today is just fine, what's wrong with tomorrow? Why accept that you were only brought into being to die after excreting some genetic fluids into a woman (or accepting those fluids from a man) when a much larger destiny awaits your acceptance?

When immortality becomes a possibility, and death becomes voluntary, then every death will be an unecessary surrender, a defeat.

Isn't there a story about this? Where you go to Howard Johnson's and get pampered wonderfully by servers on the assumption you are there to voluntarily commit suicide?

OK, so I had to search it out myself. It's the title story in Vonnegut's anthology, Welcome to the Monkey House...

:::although they're located next door to Howard Johnson's, not in Howard Johnson's themselves:::

[Zarathustra]

I have no desire to live for centuries unless I get my 25-year-old body back and I'm not going to get senile. And even still, I don't think I'd want to live for 300 years.

Oh, this is exactly what scientists are working on. Your cells are continuously being replaced in your body. It shouldn't be too hard to replace old cells with young cells. I expect we'll regrown all our organs, bones, nerves, etc. so that we'll return to our youth--or better.

From FANTASTIC VOYAGE by Ray Kurzweil and Terry Grossman, M.D.:

"Even more exciting is the prospect of replacing one's organs and tissues with their "young" replacements without surgery. Cloned telomere-extended cells introduced into an organ will integrate themselves with the older cells. Through repeated treaments over a period of time, the organ will end up being dominated by the younger cells. We normally replace our own cells on a regular basis anyway, so why not do so with youthful telomere-extended cells rather than older telomere-shortened one? There's no reason why we couldn't eventually do this with every organ and tissue in our body. We would thereby grow progressively younger."

"Therapeutic cloning relates to telomeres, which are string of repeating code at the end of each DNA strand. These repeating codes are like a string of beads, in which one "bead" falls off each time a cell divides. This places a limit on the number of times a cell can replicate--the so-called Hayflick limit. Once thes DNA beads run out, a cell is programmed for death. Recenly, it was discovered that a single enzyme called telomerase can extend the legth of the telomere beads, thereby overcoming the Hayflick limit. Germ line cells create telomerase and are immortal. Cancer cells also produce telomerase, which allows them to replicate indefinitely. The identification of this single enzyme creates important opportuniites to manipulate this process to either extend the longevity of healthy cells or terminate the longevity of pathological cells, such as cancer."

"Evidence from the genome project indicates that no more than a few hundred genes are involved in the aging process. By manipulating these genes, radical life extension has already been achieved in simpler animals. For example, by modifying genes in the C.elegans worm that control insulin and modifying sex hormone levels, the life span of the test animals was expanded sixfold, the equivalent of 500=year life span for humans."

[Avatar]

Me, I'd have no problem living forever as a man. Or until the great heat death, or whatever. As I said elsewhere, I want to know how it all turns out. And since I'm pretty sure that the universe will die the instant I do, I don't want it to be wasted.

As for what's a good day to die, if we're immortal, then any day we choose. (No that we would choose...instead, we'd be more scared of dying than we tend to be already.)

So, c'mon Esmer...I'll take the bait...what's the secret?

--A

[Esmer]

Finally! Someone takes me seriously...... heh.....thanx Av, I knew you would come thru...... you coddle me too much, sir!

First of all, let me begin by discussing the first critical component or facet of our humanity that makes A. accomplishing such a feat 99.9% impossible, as much as comprehending such a feat to begin with, and B. discussing such a thing without appearing arrogant to the observer, and subsequently "getting your gander", because it entails a strict refutation of what you already know, think, or believe. Obviously in the ordinary routine of our lives Immortality is not a fact, so attempting to describe it in modern familiar terms, and drawing inferences from fantasies and fictions, or works based not upon energetic facts, will not allow us to grasp these concepts, nor convince us or encourage us to explore new avenues of thought and perception.

It may also appear to you that I am attempting to appear more knowledgable, or more intelligent, or superior in some ways to those who may disagree, solely on that point alone, for we have been conditioned since birth to regard things in this manner when confronted by people who attempt to describe things that appear beyond the normal comprehension of the average individual or outside the scope of the world of our daily visually self oriented lives.....in other words, a normal person in society today would feel genuinely superior to those who did not possess such a secret, and would act in a manner towards others designed to garner admiration, wealth, power and respect based upon the content and validity of his words. He would seek to profit from his knowledge based on greed and arrogance...."I'm smarter than you, therefore I'm better than you, so get down on your knees and beg me, and I'll give you a little treat, like the worthless dog you are for being more ignorant than I." The Human Condition. Self Importance. Being Admired, by oneself and others. This is not so here, because I have somewhat grasped some control over my sense of self importance which would not allow me to behave in such a manner at this time, and also because I could never in a million years ever come up with such a possibility of Immortality as a direct product of my intelligent introspections or fanciful hypotheses. All of us can, we all do have the ability, to REALIZE these truths, based upon ingestion of specific information and procedures of thought and action, and to make the connection between them, equally and adequately.

Self Importance.

"the core of everything that is good in us, and everything that is rotten." Not just Ego, or arrogance, for something to be the core of us it must permeate every fiber of our being, and affect our every thought and act. To discover the length and breadth of its actual scope of influence on our lives and in our minds requires much more than idle inquisition, and can't be determined thru a simple thought process, or even an elaborate one. It requires action, and intense personal scrutiny, over a long and arduous period of time, admitting hard facts about ourselves, the world of people, and learning that some of the best things we do are based on some very unattractive facets of our self-image, for selfish reasons, and relentlessly and ruthlessly attempting to eradicate their unwarranted control over the totality of our lives. "Self importance can't be fought with niceties."

What I am about to attempt to describe involves what is referred to as "Words of Imperishability and Truth" in the ancient tongues, and modernly as "Energetic Facts". There are truths and facts of our universe, and our humanity, that aren't subject to disagreements, postulations, hypotheses, nor are they the product of intelligence, induction, deduction, or logical conclusions. It is the culmination of direct observation of perceiving energy directly as it flows in the universe. It is the same for each individual, because each individual is formed from exactly the same energy. Kinda makes a little sense, eh? Within the parameters of the statement, energetically speaking?

Now, first we must try to understand these concepts so far as a group, and agree in principle upon what has been said so far before we can continue. (deja vu, Av? ) I understand perfectly what I am saying, but without the help of my introduction, none of you can possibly agree to comprehend these statements until you have redefined your approach and your attitude in regard to this subject. Asking me to clarify or extrapolate is definitely necessary, so as none of us will become confused as we proceed further into the Topic of Topics. So basically what I am saying is "all of you are wrong, and none of you are talking about what I am, nor do you have any idea of what Immortality is, and not just because I say so", ok? Let's define and discuss it, shall we? Can we, in this manner? Are all of us capable of deferring to my direction and description? We can discuss, but not disagree. My Truth must become your Truth, my words and definitions must become yours, but only here, and only for this subject. If not, we stop here, and forget it.......(yes, that was deliberately confronting your self importance )