Children: Independence or Inheritance?

[[Syl]]

I know I wasn't ready for a kid. I had read a lot of stuff on neurological development, had a vague sense of the kind of mores to pass on, a list of things to do, and a book's worth of knowledge on how not to parent I've picked up from watching my family.

But you know, the kid's turned out pretty good so far (a little over 2). Incredibly smart, active, and alert. He's quite willful (I am strongly against spanking), but I only see that as a bad thing when it comes to his ability to destroy the house out of curiosity. He's really good with other kids and all that.

It wasn't my intention to brag, but what I'm trying to say is that if you care, do some research, and try hard, you really can't mess up that badly. (What movie is it where, I believe, John Candy says, "Don't worry; kids are resilient.") The worst that can happen is that your kid will end up just like, or perhaps a little bit better, than you.

But yeah, I think I'm pretty heavy against the idea of cloning through procreation. I believe we should give our kids the best resources we can provide and as much liberty as possible to keep them safe. There are limits, though.

On one hand, you can't give your kids everything. I'm afraid I probably fall into that a little bit, but I believe it's important that you put some effort into what you get. The way I grew up, most of the time we went with nothing, when occasionally we'd get something for no reason. I think that's made me both cynical and lazy. If they don't do something right, or even do something wrong, they lose their priveleges (doesn't work if you're not giving any) and have to fix their mistake. I think one of the biggest priveleges any of us have, and especially kids, is freedom. Keep the bounds of it commensurate with their level of maturity.

Which brings me to the other hand: You can't protect your kids from everything. Unless you live like the Amish, your kid is going to learn about all sorts of things (I can't even imagine what that must be like now with the internet), and has to be able to make his own decisions. I think all you can do is provide guidance, honestly frame all the possible outcomes of any given situation. A lot of parents worry that Bad Things will happen to their kids if they don't controll every second of it. The sheer magnitude of tragic events that can occur at any second should both ensure you implement basic safety precautions and prevent you from thinking you can stop everything if you controll everything.

It's my Jurassic Park theory of child raising: the harder you try to contain chaos, the uglier it is when you fail (and you will fail).

[Avatar]

Good post Syl. Very good post. I agree with everything you've said.

Of course, it's not when they're two that I'm "worried" about, but when they're 14/15.

Thats when your efforts, (or lack of them) really bear fruit. Of one sort or another.

In terms of the Amish though, don't forget the Rumschpringe, a tradition that, when I learned of it, totally increased my respect for them.

Essentially, it's a year or two of total abandon, that allows their teen-agers to experience the rest of the world, before taking the vows that will bind them to the old ways for life. It's up to them.

OK, if they refuse, they're cast out of their community, but the principle is admirable as far as I'm concerned. And the fact that most of them choose to return to their traditional lifestyle is perhaps a testimony to the worth of Rumschpringe.

Back to topic though, (well, to the topic that this is becoming ) going only by your posts, I get the feeling that your kid is in good hands.

--Avatar

[[Syl]]

Thanks, Av. Yeah, that Amish tradition is pretty cool. Of course, Palahniuk has an interesting take on that (not really Amish, but...) in his book Survivor. I'd love to discuss this topic with anyone who's read it.

But yeah, I'm sure 14 is exponentially harder than two. The cool thing, so far, anyway, is that a child's development works both ways. You start with the easy stuff, and then they keep throwing you more challenges as it moves along. I guess kids are like video games.

[The Pumpkin King]

Thanks, Av. Yeah, that Amish tradition is pretty cool. Of course, Palahniuk has an interesting take on that (not really Amish, but...) in his book Survivor. I'd love to discuss this topic with anyone who's read it.

But yeah, I'm sure 14 is exponentially harder than two. The cool thing, so far, anyway, is that a child's development works both ways. You start with the easy stuff, and then they keep throwing you more challenges as it moves along. I guess kids are like video games.

I agree with most everything you say =P Great minds think alike.

But, *nods* Though I can do nothing but speculate, I imagine that good parenting, and developing a good relationship with your child starts at an early age, just like a good foundation is the key to any stable building.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Well Sylvanus, you have to understand that everything is like video games. In fact, the lord in heaven created earth so that the human soul would have a GUI with which to experience video games.



Umm... wait, topic.....
right.

I'm just curious, what do y'all think about being totally honest with children? I don't mean bombarding them with mature concepts, but being honest about yourself and your limitations and expectations. When you don't know an answer to a question, can you just say so?
That's how I would try to do it, I think. I'm sure I would be incredibly insecure at all points in the parenting process

[The Pumpkin King]

I'm just curious, what do y'all think about being totally honest with children? I don't mean bombarding them with mature concepts, but being honest about yourself and your limitations and expectations. When you don't know an answer to a question, can you just say so?
That's how I would try to do it, I think. I'm sure I would be incredibly insecure at all points in the parenting process

Well, as I've said, I can't say much myself, but I do think that openess and honesty is the best path in almost every situation and leads to the best ends in the long run, so I agree with you.

I also imagine that being reasonable about ones expectations is an art a parent would have to master in order to prevent themselves from going insane.

[ChoChiyo]

I don't have children, but I've taught adolescents since 1980. You learn a few things. What I've learned is that you have to address them as if they are intelligent human beings with the ability to reason. Any time I ever came down on someone as a huge authority figure demanding respect because of my age/position, it never worked out very well. However, any time I appealed to their sense of fair play and human dignity in a reasonable and rational way, AND respected them as people of equal value to myself, I was always at least respected--though not always immediately obeyed. Heh heh.

I've also found that admitting I don't know something and promising to get back to them breeds much more respect than pretending to know it--and keeping the promise of looking it up and getting back to them always breeds awe and greater respect. (Apparently it isn't that common amongst adults...according to what the kids tell me.)

And the other thing that always makes the relationship better is apologizing for being wrong. I don't melt down very often--once last year, not at all yet this year--but when I do, it is impressive, and kids take note. I ALWAYS apologize if I do--and say something along the lines of, "I'm sorry I yelled--I shouldn't have done that. No matter how frustrating the situation was for me, I don't have the right to scream at you." It's amazing how much trust that builds.

And what's funny is that many kids have said, "No, you were right to yell at me, I was being an ass."



When I look back to my own youth (it's fuzzy and distant heh heh), I believe the adults who had the most impact on my choices and behaviors were the ones who treated me as if I had a brain and was intelligent enough to use it.

Just my two cents.

[The Pumpkin King]

I agree completely.

Case-in-point, I went to two high schools during my time. They were completely different.

Alexandria High School was a place in which every student was treated like a criminal, without respect. We had no freedom and it was the equivalent of a military compound as far as what we could do. Students were indirectly demeaned by the fact that, no matter the age, they were treated like little children. Regardless of how good you were, what you did, anything, you were treated as badly as the worst student, because to them, there was no difference. Consequently, the students DID act like criminals, because that's what everyone's expectations of the students were. Since they weren't treated with respect, why would they bother doing such to anyone else?

And then I went to Shades Valley.

COMPLETE OPPOSITE. Every student had a great deal of freedom--to the point it was almost a college campus. Intelligent discussion and debate was promoted, and everyone basically was allowed to have a very high degree of freedom, with the silent agreement that if they treated the teachers with the same respect the teachers and faculty treated them, everything would be fine. Yes, people broke that, but I imagine the ones that weren't determined to mess up were persuaded by the fact that they were treated like children again when they showed themselves incapable of holding up this agreement. In any case, the teachers expected them to be reasoning, mature adults, and the students largely delivered.

I believe this is a good example of exactly what you describe...

[duchess of malfi]

I'm just curious, what do y'all think about being totally honest with children? I don't mean bombarding them with mature concepts, but being honest about yourself and your limitations and expectations. When you don't know an answer to a question, can you just say so?
That's how I would try to do it, I think. I'm sure I would be incredibly insecure at all points in the parenting process

Oh yes. If I do not know something I admit it straight off. If I am having a bad day and snarl at someone I immediately apologize. If I make a mistake, I have no problem pointing it out and trying to correct it. I see no purpose in making a parent seem somehow more than human.

All of their young lives my husband and I have tried to make sure that our children learn how to be responsible. They have set tasks, and have been taught how to do various things such as laundry and simple cooking. If they occasionally get a poor grade they are encouraged and helped in that class, and when they get good grades we celebrate together by going out to the restaurant of their choice. And we try to get them to learn the consequences of their actions. They are expected to place their dirty laundry in the laundry hamper, for example. If they do not, then it does not get picked up or washed. After running out of clean socks and underwear once or twice, they quickly learned to put the dirties where they belong, or to do the laundry themselves.

[Avatar]

Syl-- If 14 is exponentially harder than two, that means multiplying the factor of difficulty by 2 to the power of 14, or 200,000,000,000,000. Pretty incredible when you realise that the original difficulty factor is probably fairly high to begin with.

Definitely agree with Cho and Duchess here. I often struggle to deal with little kids, so I do the only thing I can. I talk to them as though they were adults.

It works for me, sometimes, (some of them love me, others seem to be made nervous) and it's probably the way that I'll always do it. I remember how much I hated being talked "down" to as a kid, and so never do it.

Also think that Duchess' way of doing it is great. As long as you're firm, and don't cave and pick up the laundry, it's bound to have the desired effect.

Curious Syl, you say you're strongly against spanking, whihc is fair enough, (personally I'm ambivalent, depending on circumstances), but at the age your son is at now, what alternatives do you use? How do you communicate that he did something wrong, and prevent him from doing it again?

Asking because my GF and I, (She's a qualified nursery school teacher), often debate this, (she agrees with your position) and I was mentioning your remark about the Jurassic Park theory, and happened to mention the other as well.

--A