Children: Independence or Inheritance?

[The Pumpkin King]

and that is where the sin lies--in accountability. But if you do choose to act on them, the consequences are your responsiblity to deal with. That is how I feel.

Some good posts there Pumpkin King, and Jem as well. I certainly agree that social stigma, or any kind of pretense is no reason for keeping a marriage together.

And, as you may know, I definitely agree that as long as you're prepared to accept the consequences, you can do most anything.

Responsibility seems to have become such a big problem in our societies. Nobody wants to accept the consequences of their actions, and that's is plain ridiculous. If you did something, deal with what happens because of it.

On that note, such is why it bothers me when parents blame video games, movies, TV, or any other outside source for their dysfunctional child. Case-in-point, Columbine and the parents of the kids who did that blaming Doom. It's the parent's responsibility to raise their child, to pay attention what the child does, what the kid is exposed to.

It's not media's, or the entertainment industry, or ANY EXTERNAL SOURCE'S responsibility to homogenize themselves to make things "safe for kids". It's the responsibility of the parents to homogenize what their child is exposed to, to a level they consider appropriate.

And on THAT note! *rant*

One thing I've never agreed with is shielding a kid from EVERYTHING. I know people who have grown up terribly naive. The problem is...the parents won't be there forever. There has to be some point when the parents let go--and the moment they do, the kid; by now, an adult, gets hit with all the stuff that's been hidden from him at once. And they, well, go wild.

Case-in-point, every shielded person I've known has grown up to irresponsible and messes around and experiments with drugs, sex, etc, to an unprecedented level and generally ruins their life in a very short order.

Every person I've known who has been allowed to discover the world at a rate that the child feels comfortable with has grown up to be totally normal and responsible.

I'm not advocating unrestricted access to such knowledge to kids of all ages. There ARE limits. You just can't choke your child in an illusion of a candy-coated world that simply does not exist. Having a good relationship with your child, paying attention to them, and spending time with them lead to good parenting, not either (In the case of responsibility up there) too little supervision, or (in my rant) too much.

Fancy that! Kids can be smarter than most give them credit for.


Sorry for the off-topic-ness though. Carry on!

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Don't worry, off-topic-ness is a common occurence here at The Watch. We're not too rigid about it at all.

On the whole, I agree. In fact, I agree completely. However, it's a fine line, and a delicate balance to strike. There's no way to know before hand what is enough, and what is too much or too little.

Certainly protecting your child too assidiously is just asking for them to go off the rails as soon as they have a chance, and it's something that I'm sure we've all seen. But how do you decide what is an "acceptable" level of "experimentation"?

Cause it's almost certainly going to happen. Personally, as a child and teen-ager, I ascribed to the school of thought that what my parents didn't know, wouldn't hurt me, so I took pains never to be caught. (Fairly successfully too, I might add.)

But where do we draw the line? Hell, where will I draw the line when it comes to having kids of my own? It's a difficult question. (Which is why I'm not ready to have off-spring yet. )

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[The Pumpkin King]

Don't worry, off-topic-ness is a common occurence here at The Watch. We're not too rigid about it at all.

On the whole, I agree. In fact, I agree completely. However, it's a fine line, and a delicate balance to strike. There's no way to know before hand what is enough, and what is too much or too little.

Certainly protecting your child too assidiously is just asking for them to go off the rails as soon as they have a chance, and it's something that I'm sure we've all seen. But how do you decide what is an "acceptable" level of "experimentation"?

Cause it's almost certainly going to happen. Personally, as a child and teen-ager, I ascribed to the school of thought that what my parents didn't know, wouldn't hurt me, so I took pains never to be caught. (Fairly successfully too, I might add.)

But where do we draw the line? Hell, where will I draw the line when it comes to having kids of my own? It's a difficult question. (Which is why I'm not ready to have off-spring yet. )

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That's where having a good relationship with your child counts. If you really get to know them, they'll learn to trust you, and from there, talk to you about what goes on in their life.

I had a very open relationship with my parents growing up; of course, I have a fairly liberal family. Essentially the rule of thumb with them is this: One can do most anything they want, so long as they do it responsibly and in moderation.

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Right. I agree again, but there's the question of "most" anything.

A line still has to be drawn. I know that as a parent, I wouldn't want my kids to do some of the things that I did. (They probably will anyway, but that's a different discussion.)

The problem for me lies in deciding whihc of those things I can accept, and in how I can justify the "non-acceptance" of the things that I wouldn't want them to do, even though I did them myself.

On the whole, I guess that the deciding factor may be age. i.e. Wait until you're X years old before you can do that. Is that good enough? I'm not sure.

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[dennisrwood]

as to those speaking of marriage. how long have you been married? just curious. i have been married ten years. i damn near lost my wife last year. i take my marriage seriously. we work at it. and it is work. many folks don't want to work. we have rased them this way. too much individual and not enough partner. we live in Texas, my family is in New Hampshire. I sacrificed that for her family. and even after losing two aunts, my father and a grandmother i would make the choice again with no hesitation. my wife converted to Catholicism. she was a life long Baptist. i don't see the eagerness to share the burdens. the ability to get over disgreements. my folks divorced when i was 3 or 4.
but my father married the woman i consider my mother. they were married for 30 odd years. maybe if we worked to repair marriages we would have a stronger society?

[The Pumpkin King]

Right. I agree again, but there's the question of "most" anything.

A line still has to be drawn. I know that as a parent, I wouldn't want my kids to do some of the things that I did. (They probably will anyway, but that's a different discussion.)

The problem for me lies in deciding whihc of those things I can accept, and in how I can justify the "non-acceptance" of the things that I wouldn't want them to do, even though I did them myself.

On the whole, I guess that the deciding factor may be age. i.e. Wait until you're X years old before you can do that. Is that good enough? I'm not sure.

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It's all in knowing your kid, how mature they are, and what's appropriate for them.

And, well, though there is the "most anything" thing with my relationship with my parents, keep in mind that, if we DID screw up, all that freedom was gone.

I think you should look at it this way: Look at how you grew up, what you experienced, and how it affected you in becoming the person you are now. Now, apply that to your (prospective) children, with alterations on things that you probably could have done a bit better, things that, if you hadn't done, would make you a better person today.

Sometimes the lessons in life have to be learned through experience, and sometimes they can be taught. It's ones' job as a parent to sift through it all and figure out which is best for each situation.

Of course, all of this is terribly prospective for ME! I mean, I am, after all, 19, and have no intentions of siring children anytime soon.

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Dennis-- Not married, but in committed, monogamous relationship for the last 7 years. I agree with you in the sense that people seem less willing to work things out, to put in the effort that is required. And as you say, it can be an effort.

Certainly I think that more "commitment" to marriage would improve society in a certain sense. The approach that we mentioned somewhere (damn, it's hard to keep ll these threads staright ) about people entering marriage with the unspoken assumption that if it doesn't work, you can get a divorce, is the wrong attitude.

Of course, I don't think that marriage is or should be necessary in many ways, but if you're going to do it, the I agree that it should be approached with a different attitude.

Of course, on the one hand, I'm in favour of being able to get out easily if things go horribly wrong, but I don't apply "horribly wrong" to the occaisional disputes etc. When I say that, I mean abusive relationships etc.

Pumpkin King-- Sometimes I think that having done those things, and coming out alive on the other side is what made me a better person.

As you say though, some things, if not most things, can only be learned through experience. The trick lies in sorting them out. And for many people, even being taught is not enough.

My parents always told me that they tried to teach me about their mistakes, so that I could make different ones of my own. That's probably the best we can hope for.

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[The Pumpkin King]

Pumpkin King-- Sometimes I think that having done those things, and coming out alive on the other side is what made me a better person.

Exactly the sort of thing that I cited that, if someone is shielded from, deprives them of a critical experience they need in order to be a complete person in their adulthood.

Indeed some things do need to be learned, but I'm sure one can find, in retrospect, things that might have helped. Such as, say, if someone didn't learn a lesson in, say, procrastination. (That person is ME! ) I might make it a point to lend the child all the experience I possibly can in words as to why being lazy and procrastinating over things isn't exactly a way to live happily, instead of having to learn it the hard way.

That's a rather mild example, but I hope you get my point.

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I understand your point, and pretty much agree with you. However, we must be equally aware that despite making that effort to pass that important information on, there is an even chance that the child still won't have learned, or won't apply, that lesson.

BTW, I'm a terrible procrastinator myself. But it works for me, as I work better under pressure.

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[The Pumpkin King]

I understand your point, and pretty much agree with you. However, we must be equally aware that despite making that effort to pass that important information on, there is an even chance that the child still won't have learned, or won't apply, that lesson.

BTW, I'm a terrible procrastinator myself. But it works for me, as I work better under pressure.

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Hahaha, I'm exactly the same way. But in retrospect, after EVERY TIME I push myself into that kind of situation, I feel that I would have been happier without the pall of whatever I had to do hanging over my head until the very last moment...

Haven't learned yet!

And, indeed, you can try to pass information on, and it may very well not be accepted. There is no absolute perfect way to be a parent. All you can really do is try the best you can to nudge your kid down the right path, and let their experiences do the rest. Anything more is denying their essential humanity.

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Hahaha, I'm exactly the same way. But in retrospect, after EVERY TIME I push myself into that kind of situation, I feel that I would have been happier without the pall of whatever I had to do hanging over my head until the very last moment...

Haven't learned yet!

The trick is, if you know you'll do a better job at the last minute, not to worry about it. Remain aware, yes, but don't worry. If you constantly let it plague you, then you might as well do it straight away.

For me, because I know that I'll only do it at the last minute anyway, I just don't worry. (Until that last moment at least.)

...All you can really do is try the best you can to nudge your kid down the right path, and let their experiences do the rest. Anything more is denying their essential humanity.

I agree that that is all that you can do. As to whether it denies their humanity, I'm not sure, but it's probably a case of definition problems. I'd say that it reduces their opportunities to experience things perhaps. Not sure if I'm being clear here myself.

To clarify more (I hope): Part of being human is experiencing things and making mistakes. To try and prevent them from making any mistakes is not only unrealistic, but doomed to failure. I guess that that is what you were saying as well?

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[The Pumpkin King]

To clarify more (I hope): Part of being human is experiencing things and making mistakes. To try and prevent them from making any mistakes is not only unrealistic, but doomed to failure. I guess that that is what you were saying as well?

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Exactly. Denying their right to experience things...that things have consequences, and that those must be dealt with. That they can fail, and that the world isn't always going to cater to them...by sheltering them, you've denied them their natural right of the ability to be intelligent humans, reason, and make their own decisions from time to time...

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Exactly. Denying their right to experience things...that things have consequences, and that those must be dealt with. That they can fail, and that the world isn't always going to cater to them...by sheltering them, you've denied them their natural right of the ability to be intelligent humans, reason, and make their own decisions from time to time...

As well as their own mistakes. Yes, I agree, especially in the sense that it is vital that we teach children to handle failure.

By allowing them to assume that everything will go their own way, we do them as great a disservice.

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[Cail]

With all due respect Pumpkin King, your perspective at 19 is very, very different from mine at 36 as a parent. When it's your child drinking, smoking, sleeping around, doing drugs and so forth, your opinion will change dramatically.

At least mine did.

[The Pumpkin King]

With all due respect Pumpkin King, your perspective at 19 is very, very different from mine at 36 as a parent. When it's your child drinking, smoking, sleeping around, doing drugs and so forth, your opinion will change dramatically.

At least mine did.

Unfortunately, with the way parenting and society seems to work, there's really nothing anybody can reasonably do to prevent their child from doing such things to any vast respect.

It's my experience that, if people want to do something, they will do it, regardless of how allowed it is, or how inaccessable it's made to them. Teenagers especially can be unusually creative when it comes to that.

All someone can do is teach their kid as best they can and hope that it's enough. When it comes down to it, a parent can only be responsible for so much, once their child reaches an age in which they're making a lot of decisions themself. It's not necessarily if they make those decisions, when they do. Teenagers can be extremely experimental... It's that they learn from them.

I know people that, during that time of their lives, slept around, drank, did drugs, etc. And they learned from it. In fact, one went to Yale, got his degree in Anthropology, and is now in medical school. I also know people that did the same and didn't. I think the division there is how they were raised, and how well they were prepared to deal with it, and the values that were instilled upon them from birth.

In the end though, it also comes down to them. They're people, too.

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Cail is absolutely right though. And that is one of the reasons for my general non-committal on the subject.

And one of my concerns. I know that when it comes down to my own (potential) children, I wouldn't be happy with them doing the vast majority of stuff that I did.

I also know that they're going to do it anyway. And I'm gonna hate being in the position of saying "you can't do that" when I know full well that its exactly what I was doing. I'll feel like a hypocrit.

The only option is to come to terms with that knowledge. Either accept that you're going to be a hypocrit, or explain that you can't do that stuff right now. I dunno.

As The Pumpkin King says, in the end, they're people too. And despite your best intentions, it's highly unlikely that they'll turn out the way you want them to. We just have to live with it, do the best we can, and hope that they trun out alright in spite of our interference.

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[The Pumpkin King]

*nods* I never disagreed with Cail. There are things I wouldn't want my kids doing either, and I'd be very frustrated, in the least, if my kids started doing such things.

But there's also no way I can micromanage their lives. I don't even have the right to.

I don't have personal experience on the subject, but I do know what is right.

And, yeah, as I said, in the end, they have to live their own lives as well. All we can do is teach them the best we can and hope it's enough.

It's mildly depressing that we can't instill that kind of experience in our kids so that they know what it's like more palpably. If we could, I imagine the job of being a parent would be a lot easier.

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Damn, here on the reply screen, I can't even remember what this topic is called. Which makes me pretty sure that we've gone way off. That's OK though.

I imagine you're right. But this is interesting to me:

But there's also no way I can micromanage their lives. I don't even have the right to.

Don't we have the right to micro-manage our childrens lives? Or do we lose it at a certain point? If so, what is that point? Where do we draw the line for ourselves?

I mean, it's kinda our responsibility to keep them safe, educate them, and all that stuff. But at some point, we have to stop. What is that point? When they're old enough to do what they want anyway? When we decide we've instilled what we can in them?

Can we even presume to instill our own opinions etc? Damn, it's a difficult question. Is anybody ever prepared for having a child? The more I think about the moral conundrums involved, the more I'm sure that I'm nowhere near ready. But will I ever be?

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[The Pumpkin King]

I don't think anyone is ever ready.

Parenting is largely an issue of feel rather than absolutes, I imagine.

By micromanaging, I meant, say, tell someone what their dreams and aspirations are, and expect them to basically become the person you wanted to become instead of who they are. Yes, it's good to teach morality and such, but there's a point where you do have to draw the line, and that point isn't so much a point as..well..a large, hazy cloud.

In any case, I find going too far an infringement on someone's natural rights.

A delicate balance, indeed.

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...Yes, it's good to teach morality and such, but there's a point where you do have to draw the line, and that point isn't so much a point as..well..a large, hazy cloud.

That is about the way I feel too.

We just have to accept that we are going to screw up our kids in one way or another. Hell, that's practically a definition of parenthood.

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