I Think I Got A Whopper

[ur-bane]

This isn't about just a hamburger. There's cheese on it too.

[lurch]

..I'll definetly relish the moment somebody adds something constructive to this thread. Lettuce hope its soon..MEL

[ur-bane]

ROFLMAO!

Excellent lurch.

[aliantha]

I find myself in a pickle while attempting to formulate a post to this thread...

I think the fact that SRD was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War, way before he'd published anything, would immediately exempt him from any charge of "liberal artists' groupthink." And I suspect, if one would investigate it, that other liberal artists have similar, and similarly lengthy, backgrounds. One might better invest one's time in wondering why liberals are drawn to careers in the arts, rather than assuming that artists have to think a certain way in order to fit in with other artists.

Besides, the arts have their share of political conservatives: Ronald Reagan and Clint Eastwood spring immediately to mind.

As for any analogy between Linden and pre-9/11 America: meh. Maybe. But didn't SRD essentially plan out the story arc of the Last Chrons before he started writing the Second Chrons? That would give him, what, a 20-odd-year advance warning that terrorists were going to attack a complacent America? Hey, does Homeland Security know about this??

[dlbpharmd]

Aliantha's right - additionally, SRD said in the Elohimfest interviews last year that he bagan writing Runes on September 10th, 2001.

[danlo]

Don't forget Chuck Heston! I'm not defending Hollywood "group think" or anything but remember they had to have had a nasty gut reaction to the Committee on Unamerica Activities blacklisting and going after a multitude of people in that community in the fifties. And ol' Ronnie did his best to help Joe McCarthy's "vision" while serving as the Pres. of the Screen Actors Guild.

[lurch]

..He began writing runes on 9/10...and you believe because of that,,it , 9/11,the very next day,,,wouldn't had any effect on the story or theme. ....oooookaaayyy...this is the guy who also claims to re-write and edit his own stuff endlessly.
..Maybe there is a misunderstanding here. Its not if you agree or disagree with me. I'm just letting you all know where the book took me. If one can go beyond the Plot, maybe some of you all can connect the dots to an all together different picture..I hope so...As my title of this thread suggests,,when you go fishing, you never know what you are going to catch.,or if you are going to catch anything at all. But I sure hope one catches something......
..Theme detection is nothing new and to be fair its good to see it applied to Fantasy Writings because the exercise takes the genre out of the " pulp" catagory. The smug have less to be smug about....And, since the author has a fair amount of the resume filled with Mystery fiction..theme detection seems a dimension that the author would be quite familiar with...Show the author some respect by connecting your own dots..MEL

[finn]

I'd be inclined to think that writing a book as complex in plot and as colourful in texture as Runes is task enough without trying to interweave social commentary or express personal reactions to current affairs on a deliberate basis.

However, its difficult to divorce oneself from ones surrounding as I'm sure many a Sociologist will tell you. Tolkein denied vigorously that he was influenced by the First or Second World Wars, but most modern commentators of Tolkein are pretty convinced that it played a defined role in his writing: Nazgul not inspired by Nazi (remember he was a professor of English who was an acknowledged expert in the basis of how words are used....there's some name for that but it escapes me at the moment).

When I consider the relative simplicity of Orwell's Animal Farm, or the complexity of TS Elliot, I think to write Runes as a commentary whilst staying in theme with two previous trilogies is probably beyond my favourite Fanatasy author.

Nonetheless Lurch if you get that feeling, hey that's good... I think there's a picture of Odysseus hidden in the pattern on my Blinds at home!

[lurch]

...I am starting to perceive a problem here, with this thread. The analogy has some how been construed to be linked to a " Liberal School of Thought". I never made that assertion. I don't think it holds up to scrutiny.
Again,, the events of 9/11,,yes the very next day after Steve started writing Runes( was that a HINT by SRD or what?,,and while I'm on point,,so he started 9/10/ 2001 and the book didn't come out till 10/2004..seems to me theres plenty of time to be " influenced" by events),,anyway, the events happen to ALL Americans,,and with some graciousness,, perhaps the whole WORLD..They were the World Trade Towers afterall. ..Its not a Liberal or Conservative issue. Somebody else has issues with Liberal and Conservative not me. I still see Runes as an exploration of the parameters of Hope. Apply it the Human Condition. What fits?...The atomic genie out of the bottle?..Organized Religion?,,Science?...how our society dealt with and viewed terrorism before 911...and after.??..or is it just a story on a woman becoming a real parent? There are many levels to look at.

.Are we so screwed up that we automatically assign Politics to EveryThing?.I mean we yik yak all day long in the Tank or wherever..but we dare not allow an author to take us to the same ..???? You can't un -plugg the thought template and just let your thoughts go.? Donaldson is dealing with the interior landscape here. This is mind and heart,,,hope and despair,,passion and contemplation,,stuff hes writing about. Please tell me that being a Conscientous Objector to the Vietnam War has no connection to...Being True?..being a Pariah in Society,,Being Guilty,,and being motivated to rise Above the Guilt and demonstrate your value as a person by greater acts and deeds of kindness and service. Oooh MYyy!

...Again...Theres afew basic questions to ask yourself...What is Lindens " guilt" or " leprosy"?....or ,,what does Lord Foul mean by.." You are Already Mine!",,and please don't dismiss that line..The AUTHOR WROTE IT FOR A REASON..

.The current "bandwagon" item being circulated in management circles is ..Ask " why" 5 times with every situation you encounter. heck,, where I work at, they've already increased the slogan to ..".Ask " why" 7 times with every problem you face today."..The idea is to pursue root cause...Alls I m suggesting is to ask a series of question,,and when all the answers have a commonality,, yea, connect the dots..and then take a look at the picture. If the picture doesn't make any sense,,then try a different set of questions...Its called Theme Detection. ..The last thing you want to do is put restrictions on what You Think the Author would be talking about...Are you all reading the same GI that I am?...MEL

[danlo]

Ya know finn, lurch, etc...I'm never going anywhere near politics again-I gave them up, for good, about a month ago. I will say this and be gone: SRD said he had to take a fairly long break after 9/11 before he started writting Runes again, who could blame him, or anyone for that matter. I read into it (Runes) with my heart--nothing else, but I will say this: after being at Ground Zero last week and watching the Peter Jennings tribute with painful footage of the Trade Center buildings collapsing, the disintegration of Kevin's Watch takes on a whole new meaning. Hypervigilance in the midst of chaos--Haruchai blinders vs madness and a complete shake-up as to what the future holds-this is what I see, or what I expect to see with the remaining three books. Stephen often has said he knows the conclusion and works towards achieving it, though his character development tends to suprise him. I'm pretty sure that-if he uses his heart-he'll even suprise himself.

[finn]

Not come across the ask 'why' thing, but the single largest group who ask why time after time after time is small children....what does this tell us?

*****

Now lurch, I enjoy and am inspired by much of what you write, you ask good questions....BUT...

Please bear in mind that this is not (or at least I hope its not) an "American" site but an internet site which, by definition (WWW), goes beyond the borders of the US. As such I for one would like to keep things international, conceptual and non-political in 'feel', not painted with a US flag. Your reference to the "World" trade centre is all very well but graciousness????

Terrorism did not start on 9/11...I think there'd be a few cheesed off brits who lost loved ones to IRA bombs made of explosives paid for with money raised in pubs located in the shadow of those towers. Likewise Jewish Olympic athletes, Spaniards, French etc. etc.

Please look at words like "us" "we" etc. in this context....many of 'us' have lived with terrorism for a long time prior to 9/11.

I DO understand your point, but I feel that we can enjoy discussion of the books at a level which does not become or allude to our "tribes".

No intent to bust your b*lls or putting limitations on but just a request perhaps to organise the thoughts on a non-partisan basis, ie I am a reader not an American/Brit/Kiwi/African etc.

[Avatar]

Having said that, anything a viewer or reader finds in any art it valid.

Careful with that line of thought. If true, then the Beatles really did tell Charles Manson to murder Sharon Tate.

Practically took the words out of my mouth VF. This is an issue that I enjoy discussing. While I'm not saying that audiences shouldn't draw their own inferences, or that they are not true for each individual, I still think that the artists intent is important as well, in some cases more than in others perhaps.

And excellent posts everybody.

Dlb, if you wanna shift this to the "Tank, go right ahead. Gods know we'll discuss anything there.

Finn -- That curiosity is important?

While I certainly agree that this is an international forum, we can't expect peoples thoughts and opinions not to be coloured by their environments, and when you add in that the author himself shares (to some extent anyway) that environment, "cutural" issues are necessarily going to reflect that.

That said, there's no reason not to try, but I don't think temporary emphasis on anything that relates to a particular culture/nationality is anything to worry about. Still, I agree with the essence of your post in relation to terrorism, and if you wanna talk about it, why, join us in the Think-Tank.

--Avatar

[lurch]

finn..you make my point for me..the graciousness is said from an american point of view...with a subtle satire implied. That is the exact point, that terrorism has been around a loooong time,,and many Americans,,from the Top on down,,didn't seem to see it being carried out in America any time soon. "We" were off in LaLa land. Our airport security ,already in place,,were just standing around with out a clue. Our FBI was so full of its bureaucratic needs, that apparently, those needs were more important than the message being sent up the flag pole. All the way to top,,there was little recognition of what was being relayed.
..I do not see how you perceive me belittleling past Terrorism. If you check my posts ,,i think you'll see i make a point by refering the American posture as to having head stuck in the sand. " We" could not conceive of a major terrorist act happening here in America.,,despite major acts happening all around the world. We were not real, we were just too full of ourselves...much like Linden and her "real" world.

Again,,try to detatch any politics from this,,and see it all ,,as a series of events That Did Happen. There are raw human emotions,,basic human behavior, wants and needs, involved in the 911 story as well as Donaldson's Runes. I perceive parallels. As suggested by another, i expect Donaldson to transcend the nationality or political,,aspects, which imho he already has,,and deal with the human stuff below the surface,,that can be applied to All acts extremism , all over the world...MEL

[aliantha]

Mel, now that you've expanded on your theme a bit, I tend to agree with you. 9/11 affected *every*body in America, to some degree; to think that it didn't have some some impact on SRD as he wrote Runes is as unrealistic as thinking that he made deliberate changes to the story in response to 9/11.

BTW, yes, Americans have come pretty late to the terrorist-attack dance. I can't help thinking that the rest of the world must be a little bemused (if not amused) by our extended hair-tearing and soul-searching over it by now. The Brits didn't mess around when the Tube was bombed earlier this summer -- those guys were arrested in record time. But then, sadly, they've had a lot more practice....

[lurch]

Aliantha..yes , well,, consider this if you so please..what is the underlying Rune?
What is the ancient cryptic message of the eon old granite? As Anele would have it...that the Peoples Presense in the Land has been a travesty of ignorance , lack of understanding consequences, and short sightedness that leads to moments of darkest despair. There is a sense of the " cyclic" nature about it. There is a sense of one moment leading to the next,,cause and effect,,building to a momentus ritual of desecration,,then the whole cycle begins anew. Interesting that Vonnegut is being discussed in the Library rite now..I think it was his Player Piano that had the cyclic nature of mankind as its theme. Vonnegut doesn't have any hope for mankind tho. I digress.sorry.

Donaldson tells this ancient parable from a crazy olde blind man. But we kno him to be True. The ancient granite tale of the people of the Land could be seen as a parallel to the short sighted, almost ignorant perception of the world and what is going on,, by the general american. Does it follow,,if we are that way about the world,,its could also be applicable to ourselves? Do you realize that just about every American Network media Foreign Bureau has been closed down due to lack of interest?

What i am angleling at is that it is quite possible,,just as Donaldson says,,that he had the Idea of the Last Chrons long ago. That would be the Theme, the rough outline. A talented story teller like Donaldson could quite easily change a handful of chapters within a 3 year span to accomodate recent events in his thematic exploration...imho anyway.But, its important to take the discussion to the next level or next step..apply the concept to the individual as well. Again,,we all went thru the events of 911.....MEL

[finn]

Guys, forgive earlier outburst. I am a Londoner and tho' now living in Oz (the one next to New Zealand not over the rainbow), I went through the IRA campaign and was pretty close to a couple of the bombs at Harrrods and the Bandstand. I also knew someone in the recent tube train bombing, I say knew, all that was left of him is his memory; ironically perhaps, he was a US citizen.

Aliantha, I must confess to being one of the bemused and I am wary of this thread due to the danger of criticism of the US by a non-american. You guys can be self-critical with impunity but if I do so, I am "attacking" you, which I do not mean to do. My father has lived in the US for the past 35 years and I go regularly to see him and the more I visit the starker the contrast is between the essential nature of the American people and the leaders that you suffer. I think I was feeling that this thread was more extended hair tearing, I was mistaken.

Avatar, thanks for your response and your points are well made, I have no idea what the 'tank' is or how to access it, but would be happy to visit.

Lurch, I said in the earlier post that I did understand your point, in retrospect I now feel that I was actually missing it and have since seen what I think you're getting at more clearly.

Again this line is precarious for a non American but I hope you do not feel any criticism of US Policy (supported by the country I live in and the country I was born in) is misdirected.

I have long been a believer in the principle that historically, Church and State have ruled the masses using punitive means: carrot/stick motivations in this world or the next...."do this and you get jailed, do that and your soul burns in hell forever". With the decline of the Church as a serious "master" the new religeon of "unfettered" corporate gluttony has led to a need to create new "masters" to manage the population.

Although Goebels did not invent propaganda he mastered its use and his lessons seem to have been well taken by most so called Western Democracies (every 4-5 years we are "free" to vote for either the liar or the thief). They have harnessed its power to make it like a fog; mis-directing, mis-informing, lying by ommission and creating fear.

The Media, who themselves are giant corporations, know which side their bread is buttered and do what the "free" world leaders want....keep the public mis-informed, misdirected etc. whilst all the time selling the message that they are actually well-informed and know whats going on. Perhaps that's why a poll one year after 9/11 came up with around 60% of Americans believing that Saddam was to blame for the twin towers!

So there is your fog, your Kevin's Dirt. In the second chronicles Aliantha was supposed to be poison...mis-direction, Lord Foul's propaganda... could Lord Foul be Murdoch???? Perhaps he's laughing in our faces calling it FOX, an animal known for being sly and duplicitous.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I believe the complacency prior to 9/11 was deliberately induced by most of your post war governments and the hysteria post 9/11 is also being spun for the benefit of those same "leaders". As I say, I visit the US regularly and most of the people I meet are so different to the picture painted of you by your government, to the rest of the world. If America is a target for terrorism, its your own governments actions that have painted the bullseye!

This discussion is a lot less light-hearted than most, we are all dealing with our feeling as well as our intellects in such a thread, but it is interesting and necessary that such discussions take place....from little acorns....

That being said, what of the first two chronicles, do they also catalogue the world and the authors feelings on it at the time, its perhaps easy to allude to 9/11 because it was apocyphal. Kevin's Watch - twin towers, Ceasures -terrorism (dervishes whirl - a connection?), Kevin's Dirt - blanket of ignorance, Masters - propaganda merchants (media) or maybe Army/Police. These can be related to 9/11 events and circumstances surrounding them, but what of the earlier chronicles? What was the Sunbane? - Vietnam? McCarthyism?

Perhaps thats for later once we've all dealt with this.

[lurch]

.Finn.I have witnessed, in other chat rooms, what you refer to.Any critique by anybody beyond the borders is immediately met with derision only American xenophobia could create.And in some cases,,any critique from outside a certain State, situated in the south central part of the country is met with the same foaming at the mouth derision.
..I think ,,one of the possibly saddest arcs in the Last Chrons,,will be of the innocent, Liand. If the character survives to the end, he will be completly changed. It will be interesting to see what Donaldson makes of him,,a shining Hero or a Blackard.,,,maybe both...........MEL...ps..somewhere i read Donaldson commenting to the effect that the sunbane , its effects, had link to the man made extravagant "improvements' to the soil,,ie massive use of fertilizers and nasty insecticides, etc.,,M

[dlbpharmd]

Please keep this discussion relevent to TCOTC or Runes; or, if you prefer, I can move it to the Think Tank. Thanks!

[finn]

dlb: The relevance is in what effect events in the real world are reflected in Runes and by extension TCOTC. I guess there was a certain amount of "feeling out the waters" before venturing too far into what I know is still sensitive territory.

I am not conversant with what the "tank" is...a more open forum I'd guess, or how to access it as invited to do so by Avatar. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction.

Lurch et al: there might be interesting lines of discussion from where this is now, hope you'd like to continue.

[ur-bane]

finn-- the "Tank" to which Avatar is referring is a Forum in the Collective here at Kevin's Watch:

Hile Troy's Think Tank

The Collective also contains other forums for philosophical, religious, technological, and political discussions, among others.

Check it out.