In praise of Montalban's Khan

[Avatar]

Apparently so.

--A

[SoulBiter]

They set it up early in this movie for Khan to use so many quotes from Moby Dick. They had been on that planet a long time with just the contents of the cargo carrier to keep them alive and occupied.

So when Chekov first is looking the bookshelf you notice the book Moby Dick. Which is what he is looking at when he realizes he is hanging onto a belt that has the name Botony Bay on it.

It kind of excuses the use of so much language from the book when you consider he probably has read it over and over again for years just to stay occupied.

[Rocksister]

Kahn should have met up with Picard. "Earl Grey, Mr. Khan?"

[Zarathustra]

I just watched this again last night because of this thread. Fantastic movie. Khan is awesome.

But a few gripes . . . why was Starfleet looking for a "dead planet" when the scientists already had one? They were doing Stage Two of the Genesis project inside a moon that was nothing but a cratered rock. And considering how rare life is, how hard could it be to find a planet without life? We have, like, 8 of them in our solar system alone! That's not even counting all the moons and asteroids. But they make it sound like this is an arduous task they've been working on for a while.

Also, the Enterprise was the only ship in the quadrant???? What about the ship that *beat* them there? You know, the one Khan took over? Okay, maybe they didn't respond to Starfleets communications. But if so, shouldn't Starfleet warned the Enterprise that a rouge Starfleet ship was in the area?

And how in the world did the Enterprise become "the only ship in the quadrant" when they just left Earth on a training cruise, and they hadn't even gone into warp speed yet? The first time they go to warp speed is when they get the order to check out the Genesis situation. So there is no way they could have even left our solar system yet!

And if Khan has a genetically superior intellect, why did it take him so long to figure out that Chekov thought they were on Ceti Alpha 6? He tells Khan, "On Ceti Alpha 5, there was life." Khan responds, "This is Ceti Alpha 5!!!" And then he rambles for a few minutes . . . then it dawns on him that Chekov thinks this planet is Ceti Alpha 6. Well, no shit! Chekov just told you that, genetically superior superman!

And why did Starfleet think this planet was Ceti Alpha 6??? Can't they count? Don't you think they'd notice that a planet was *missing* from a star system? An asteroid belt that wasn't there before? These are advanced humans exploring the galaxy, but they can don't notice fundamental changes to a star system like a planet blowing up? Come on.

[Edit: actually, if the 6th planet blew up, they would have went to Ceti Alpha 7, not 5! All they had to do was begin with the star, count outwards, and realize that the 5th planet was in fact not the 6th! Pretty easy to spot. God, that's a stupid mistake.]

And their tricorder picked up the life signs of this tiny sand creature in the cargo container, but it didn't pick up the life signs of 20-30 humans standing around outside????

And the Enterprise has a room with crucial components to its warp drive, but you can't go in there to fix it without dying from radiation?? Who the hell designed that room?!? Why didn't they include a little robot who could lift that thingie and do that thingamajig that Spock did? Seems like a major design flaw. Or . . . couldn't they just use the transporter to beam the necessary part in there? Come on Spock, you're the science officer! Think!

[Cail]

And the Enterprise has a room with crucial components to its warp drive, but you can't go in there to fix it without dying from radiation?? Who the hell designed that room?!?

[aTOMiC]

I just watched this again last night because of this thread. Fantastic movie. Khan is awesome.

But a few gripes . . . why was Starfleet looking for a "dead planet" when the scientists already had one? They were doing Stage Two of the Genesis project inside a moon that was nothing but a cratered rock. And considering how rare life is, how hard could it be to find a planet without life? We have, like, 8 of them in our solar system alone! That's not even counting all the moons and asteroids. But they make it sound like this is an arduous task they've been working on for a while.

I'm guessing that there were many details that were not explained about the parameters the Genesis scientists required in their search for an appropriate body for the next level of their experiments. I'm guessing that just any old rock wouldn't do. It had to be something specific. At least that's what I assumed and believe was implied. IMHO

Also, the Enterprise was the only ship in the quadrant???? What about the ship that *beat* them there? You know, the one Khan took over? Okay, maybe they didn't respond to Starfleets communications. But if so, shouldn't Starfleet warned the Enterprise that a rouge Starfleet ship was in the area?

And how in the world did the Enterprise become "the only ship in the quadrant" when they just left Earth on a training cruise, and they hadn't even gone into warp speed yet? The first time they go to warp speed is when they get the order to check out the Genesis situation. So there is no way they could have even left our solar system yet!

First of all we don't know the spatial relationships between Earth, Reliant's Search area and Regula 1. Even with Reliant assigned to the Genesis project we don't know just how far away she was supposed to be from Regula at the time Star Fleet ordered Enterprise to investigate. I'm willing to accept that since only a loss of communications was reported, Enterprise's proximity and status may have been perfectly appropriate to the situation. Reliant, being on assignment elsewhere, may have been a poor choice from Star Fleet's point of view, given the circumstances.

And if Khan has a genetically superior intellect, why did it take him so long to figure out that Chekov thought they were on Ceti Alpha 6? He tells Khan, "On Ceti Alpha 5, there was life." Khan responds, "This is Ceti Alpha 5!!!" And then he rambles for a few minutes . . . then it dawns on him that Chekov thinks this planet is Ceti Alpha 6. Well, no shit! Chekov just told you that, genetically superior superman!

I'll give you that one, however Khan's flair for the dramatic may have accounted for the supposed delay in his realization. Frankly the entire exchange didn't take all that long from beginning to end.

And why did Starfleet think this planet was Ceti Alpha 6??? Can't they count? Don't you think they'd notice that a planet was *missing* from a star system? An asteroid belt that wasn't there before? These are advanced humans exploring the galaxy, but they can don't notice fundamental changes to a star system like a planet blowing up? Come on.

[Edit: actually, if the 6th planet blew up, they would have went to Ceti Alpha 7, not 5! All they had to do was begin with the star, count outwards, and realize that the 5th planet was in fact not the 6th! Pretty easy to spot. God, that's a stupid mistake.]

Here's another point I'll concede. It is pretty unlikely that Ceti Alpha 5's new orbit would be precisely the same as that of the late Ceti Alpha 6.

And their tricorder picked up the life signs of this tiny sand creature in the cargo container, but it didn't pick up the life signs of 20-30 humans standing around outside????

Scans and life form reading were obviously impacted by the environment. We don't know that the Reliant crew specifically identified the "sand creature" as the life form they read. They even believed it may have been "a particle of pre animate matter caught in the matrix".
That doesn't sound very specific to me. IMHO

And the Enterprise has a room with crucial components to its warp drive, but you can't go in there to fix it without dying from radiation?? Who the hell designed that room?!? Why didn't they include a little robot who could lift that thingie and do that thingamajig that Spock did? Seems like a major design flaw. Or . . . couldn't they just use the transporter to beam the necessary part in there? Come on Spock, you're the science officer! Think!

I'll give you this one too. Seems pretty like a pretty lousy design to me as well.

Great post!

[rdhopeca]

Quote:

And the Enterprise has a room with crucial components to its warp drive, but you can't go in there to fix it without dying from radiation?? Who the hell designed that room?!? Why didn't they include a little robot who could lift that thingie and do that thingamajig that Spock did? Seems like a major design flaw. Or . . . couldn't they just use the transporter to beam the necessary part in there? Come on Spock, you're the science officer! Think!

I'll give you this one too. Seems pretty like a pretty lousy design to me as well.

I always felt that the radiation was a side effect of the damage done, not a constant condition. Wasn't someone standing in that exact room during the inspection early in the movie?

[aTOMiC]

Quote:

And the Enterprise has a room with crucial components to its warp drive, but you can't go in there to fix it without dying from radiation?? Who the hell designed that room?!? Why didn't they include a little robot who could lift that thingie and do that thingamajig that Spock did? Seems like a major design flaw. Or . . . couldn't they just use the transporter to beam the necessary part in there? Come on Spock, you're the science officer! Think!

I'll give you this one too. Seems pretty like a pretty lousy design to me as well.

I always felt that the radiation was a side effect of the damage done, not a constant condition. Wasn't someone standing in that exact room during the inspection early in the movie?

My assumption was similar. I didn't believe there was a static "bottle" of radiation in that chamber. However with the damage caused by the battle the only way to repair the Warp drive was contained in a specific area that was prone (under certain conditions) to be flooded with lethal amounts of radiation. That is the design flaw I have a problem with.

[Zarathustra]

The room had a radiation sign on it.

I'm guessing that there were many details that were not explained about the parameters the Genesis scientists required in their search for an appropriate body for the next level of their experiments. I'm guessing that just any old rock wouldn't do. It had to be something specific. At least that's what I assumed and believe was implied. IMHO

I'm sure there were details not explained. But if "any old rock wouldn't do," then the device isn't very useful. Besides, it created a life-abundant planet out of a nebula. If it can do that, I think any old rock would do.

First of all we don't know the spatial relationships between Earth, Reliant's Search area and Regula 1. Even with Reliant assigned to the Genesis project we don't know just how far away she was supposed to be from Regula at the time Star Fleet ordered Enterprise to investigate. I'm willing to accept that since only a loss of communications was reported, Enterprise's proximity and status may have been perfectly appropriate to the situation. Reliant, being on assignment elsewhere, may have been a poor choice from Star Fleet's point of view, given the circumstances.

Reliant was closer. It got there first. But then again, it left sooner, so maybe it wasn't closer. But it was the ship assigned to help out the scientists, so it seems they would have at least tried to contact them first.

However, I don't buy the argument that a ship full of trainees which just left space dock and hadn't yet engaged its warp engines would be closer to *any* star outside our solar system. There's no way it could have gotten to Mars's orbit yet, in the time frame of the movie. Unless our solar system was closer to the space station than every other ship in the Federation, there's no way the Enterprise could be the closest.

Here's another point I'll concede. It is pretty unlikely that Ceti Alpha 5's new orbit would be precisely the same as that of the late Ceti Alpha 6.

It's worse than that. Even if the orbit was exactly the same, there would still be a missing planet that would be obvious to any space traveling species. Or any species that could count.

[aTOMiC]

Malik, To comment 1 all I can say is that in the absence of specific information concerning the Genesis Project I'm willing to accept that there were "mitigating circumstances" that precluded Stage 3 experimentation on many or most of the bodies available. Why else would they employ Reliant unless the search was at least somewhat specific. Akin to finding the proverbial needle in a haystack.

To comment 2. Again we don't know about Reliant's mission parameters. Sure she got there first but only after Khan discovered information about the Genesis project and hi jacked Reliant. It's not clear how long it took to travel from the Ceti Alpha star system to Regula. For all we know it took weeks. Once Terrel and Chekov encounter Khan there is a blank space in the story while Reliant is traveling toward Regula. It's assumed that it took time for Khan to take control of Reliant, maroon the crew on Ceti Alpha 5, and discover all he needed to know about Genesis. Checkov states, while talking to Dr. Marcus en route, that they would arrive in a couple of days. Reliant may have been moving toward Regula, between the asteroid and Earth, making it possible to jam Regula's transmissions before actually arriving. Only then is Admiral Kirk alerted to the problem and asked to investigate. There are too many time holes to know for certain much of anything since details in the narrative are sparse in some parts of the story. It only seems fast due to story editing.

Comment 3. I agree with completely.

[matrixman]

[The Genesis device] created a life-abundant planet out of a nebula.

That point has always nagged me as well. Where did this miraculous Genesis planet come from? Just watching the sequence in the movie from Reliant's explosion to the appearance of the planet, I think many viewers could be forgiven for thinking the whole planet somehow originated from Reliant itself.

[rdhopeca]

I think it could make the planet out of any materials. The point about the lifeless planet was purely an ethical one; do not destroy ANY life just to satisfy our own curiosity and experimentation.

[aTOMiC]

[The Genesis device] created a life-abundant planet out of a nebula.

That point has always nagged me as well. Where did this miraculous Genesis planet come from? Just watching the sequence in the movie from Reliant's explosion to the appearance of the planet, I think many viewers could be forgiven for thinking the whole planet somehow originated from Reliant itself.

Forgive me for my continued attention to this thread. Man I've watched it way too much!

I'm guessing that the "Genesis Effect" as described in the proposal to the Federation we see in the film (and again in Star Trek III with Kirk replacing Carol Marcus in the video) reacted to whatever material was available to reorder matter in favor of it's new matrix. I have always assumed that the Genesis planet was formed from the available energy and matter found in the Nebula, of which there was an abundance. I agree that a Nebula isn't a planet or an asteroid but the aforementioned "Genesis Effect" doesn't seem to give a crap. It's going to make it's "habitable world" out of whatever it inflicts itself upon.
I have no doubt that the Reliant, Khan and everything else we see in the scene become part of Genesis. So Khan lives on as part of a new planet...until the unstable world tears itself apart of course.

IMHO.

[Cameraman Jenn]

As to the radiation sign on the door: It doesn't mean that the room was constantly full of radiation, merely that the room has radioactive elements which can potentially cause contamination so that the entrants use caution.

[matrixman]

I'm guessing that the "Genesis Effect" as described in the proposal to the Federation we see in the film (and again in Star Trek III with Kirk replacing Carol Marcus in the video) reacted to whatever material was available to reorder matter in favor of it's new matrix. I have always assumed that the Genesis planet was formed from the available energy and matter found in the Nebula, of which there was an abundance. I agree that a Nebula isn't a planet or an asteroid but the aforementioned "Genesis Effect" doesn't seem to give a crap. It's going to make it's "habitable world" out of whatever it inflicts itself upon.

Aaargh. That means I've held the wrong assumption about the Genesis device all these years. I thought it needed a planetoid to work its ways. Oh well. Wouldn't be the first time (and surely won't be the last) that I've completely misunderstood something about Star Trek. Why is 23rd century science so hard to grasp?

[aTOMiC]

I'm guessing that the "Genesis Effect" as described in the proposal to the Federation we see in the film (and again in Star Trek III with Kirk replacing Carol Marcus in the video) reacted to whatever material was available to reorder matter in favor of it's new matrix. I have always assumed that the Genesis planet was formed from the available energy and matter found in the Nebula, of which there was an abundance. I agree that a Nebula isn't a planet or an asteroid but the aforementioned "Genesis Effect" doesn't seem to give a crap. It's going to make it's "habitable world" out of whatever it inflicts itself upon.

Aaargh. That means I've held the wrong assumption about the Genesis device all these years. I thought it needed a planetoid to work its ways. Oh well. Wouldn't be the first time (and surely won't be the last) that I've completely misunderstood something about Star Trek. Why is 23rd century science so hard to grasp?

That's okay, MM. Apparently David Marcus didn't understand 23rd century science either. What kind of lunatic uses "Protomatter" anyway?

Here's an interesting question.
The underground "Phase II" site within Regula? Everyone was eating food created with the aid of "Protomatter". If the fate of Genesis is any indication, the morning after was probably worse than you feel after eating a convenience store burrito. OUCH! I just hope 23rd century medicine has a remedy.

[SoulBiter]

Quote:

And the Enterprise has a room with crucial components to its warp drive, but you can't go in there to fix it without dying from radiation?? Who the hell designed that room?!? Why didn't they include a little robot who could lift that thingie and do that thingamajig that Spock did? Seems like a major design flaw. Or . . . couldn't they just use the transporter to beam the necessary part in there? Come on Spock, you're the science officer! Think!

I'll give you this one too. Seems pretty like a pretty lousy design to me as well.

I always felt that the radiation was a side effect of the damage done, not a constant condition.

Thats how I saw that as well. The room was fine but inside that thingamajig that Spock put his hands in, something was broken that was releasing radiation in the room. They could use the transporter to get the part in the room, but someone has to 'install' the new part.

[Zarathustra]

. . . but someone has to 'install' the new part.

All I can say is . . . worst job in Starfleet. Who trains at the Academy all those years for a single act of warp drive repair which ends in death? And where the hell was he when they needed him?

Star Trek needs Wall-e.

[Avatar]

I'm pretty sure that under normal conditions, it wouldn't result in death though. Like the others, I've always assumed it was due to damage that the radioactive contamination became so bad.

--A

[SoulBiter]

WOW.. I just saw this: Ricardo Montalban passed away today.

www.laobserved.com/archive/2009/01/deat ... ntalba.php