Bakker's THE DARKNESS THAT COMES BEFORE

[[Syl]]

Read his bio on wikipedia and it should make sense. Bakker has a lit undergrad degree, an MA in Theory and Criticism (not an MFA in Creative Writing), and is a failed PhD Candidate (his introduction in this scholarly article (which I excerpted in the Close and everybody but Av ignored) makes it sounds like he was kicked out of the philosophy program, but what the actual story is, I don't know).

[Holsety]

It's almost as if Khellus himself wrote these books.

I remember a quote he gave regarding Kellhus..."Kellhus is me at my 95-100% smartest all the time" or something like that. Considering that his other work, Neuropath, is also something of a road down an inevitable path to a kind of "ruin," perhaps his fantasy, which he's described as a method of spiritual inquiry, is actually something of a philosophical warning.

[Zarathustra]

To be clear, I was referring to his writing in response to critics, and in interviews when talking about his work, not to the writing in the books.

Oh yeah, that was clear. I suppose my reply muddied the waters, though. I meant that I could see how he would be pretentious/arrogant in real life, because it also comes through in his writing a little bit.

[Zarathustra]

I'm almost 200 page into this. I decided to turn off the nightly news programs last night and just read. I think I'm going to cancel my cable. I enjoyed myself so much more just reading the evening away.

This is starting to get really good. I loved the sneaky tactics of the Consult/scranc on the plains, the secret plan which Sorweel "discovered." His story is starting to go somewhere.

I was a little bored with the Fayanal section, but it was short. I do think he's an interesting character, but there is just so much to cover in this series, I felt it diluted the narrative.

Getting back to Kelmomas was cool. I loved the scene with his crazy brother locked up in chains. I'm expecting good things from that.

The heart of the story is Achamian and Mimara. This is just incredible. The arboreal expanse of the M...(something) Forest is nearly as epic Cil Ajus (sp?). Part of Bakker's genius is conveying really large environments and making them real, putting you right there inside their immensity, giving you glimpses from the bottom of their details to the top of their overviews.

I'm really enjoying the deepening relationship between Akka and Mim, the discussions where she is starting to open up to him. I liked seeing Khellus's kids through her eyes. The skin-spy has been revealed, and he's now talking her into killing the Captain. He has revealed to her the fetus she carries, which holds implications for The Judging Eye. And we're starting to get a new perspective on Akka's quest. Maybe it is playing into the hands of the enemies he's fighting. The ambiguity is starting to pile up, but in no way is it threatening to collapse under its own weight. Bakker is carefully building a narrative structure that holds it all up beautifully, while letting you appreciate its apparent contradictions. Brilliant.

As always, the prose is mind-bogglingly profound. There is almost no difference between the bulk of the main text and the little "quotes" from the Classics which open each chapter. This man is a true genius. I don't know how he comes up with so many profound observations, and the perfect words to express them. I'm just stunned.

Minor gripes on the language: some descriptions are overused. Way too many things hang in "sheets." Way too many things are "thatched." Smoke metaphors are used to questionable effect in describing things like expressions. Lots of things are "pinched."

But as I said, these are minor gripes. It just seems a tad lazy to reuse the same comparisons and language over and over.

[Brinn]

Couldn't have said it better my own self. The man is a savant.

[Zarathustra]

Well, after thinking this was the best book so far for many hundreds of pages, it's starting to drag. I think the book could have been 150 pages shorter. I've just finished the chapter where the Sranc horde attacks for the second time, and Sorweel found Serwa and Moengus screwing. I wish this chapter had only been about Sorweel. The endless trek of The Great Ordeal is getting old. I want to get back to Akka and Esmenet. They have both suffered a couple significant setbacks (the Captain revealed he's working for Kellhus and Esmenet has been usurped by Maithenet). I can feel things starting to approach a conclusion, but this feeling is accompanied by the realization that not very much has happened for 400+ pages. Lots of walking and taking drugs. However, I assume the conclusion will reward my patience.

[lucimay]

Read his bio on wikipedia and it should make sense. Bakker has a lit undergrad degree, an MA in Theory and Criticism (not an MFA in Creative Writing), and is a failed PhD Candidate (his introduction in this scholarly article (which I excerpted in the Close and everybody but Av ignored) makes it sounds like he was kicked out of the philosophy program, but what the actual story is, I don't know).

yep, guilty as charged. because i don't care for him and i know there are several people here who are pretty big fans so i refrain from commenting on bakker threads so as not to seem contentious.

i really liked the darkness that came before and even went so far as to send copies to my dad and brothers (so that's FOUR books that i purchased because i like it) but the second book just bored me to tears. Neuropath was interesting but for me, it had no soul. (irony intended, LOL!)
so yeah, i pretty much don't read any bakker posts here.
people like what they like or don't like what they don't like and who am i to judge if people like something i don't, right? *shrug*

[Holsety]

i really liked the darkness that came before and even went so far as to send copies to my dad and brothers (so that FOUR books that i purchased because i like it) but the second book just bored me to tears. Neuropath was interesting but for me, it had no soul. (irony intended, LOL!)

I think Neuropath sort of relies heavily on the MC's love of his children. If you don't become vested in that, you don't become vested in what happens to him. To some extent, it is taken for granted. Personally I found the book to be interesting enough but...pretty much not a fantastic read.

[Zarathustra]

Let us have it, Luci! I don't think anyone here will take it personally if you criticize Bakker's books. It just gives us a chance to defend our fondness for him, and to refine our reasons for liking him.

I thought the third Prince of Nothing book was the weakest, and bored me a little (not quite to tears). The second was a worthy follow-up to the first, and in my opinion fully delivered on its promising beginning. Seeing Kellhus develop into the leader/prophet/ultimate conman was amazing. Seeing the characters go through such transformations was truly surprising and made me realize this author could do anything, that he was ready to let them suffer. It really started to feel big. But the third dropped the ball, and become more of the same, and less.

Fortunately, TJE and TWLW have far surpassed the weak third book. These characters still have epic journeys ahead of them.

[lucimay]

Let us have it, Luci! I don't think anyone here will take it personally if you criticize Bakker's books. It just gives us a chance to defend our fondness for him, and to refine our reasons for liking him.

I thought the third Prince of Nothing book was the weakest, and bored me a little (not quite to tears). The second was a worthy follow-up to the first, and in my opinion fully delivered on its promising beginning. Seeing Kellhus develop into the leader/prophet/ultimate conman was amazing. Seeing the characters go through such transformations was truly surprising and made me realize this author could do anything, that he was ready to let them suffer. It really started to feel big. But the third dropped the ball, and become more of the same, and less.

Fortunately, TJE and TWLW have far surpassed the weak third book. These characters still have epic journeys ahead of them.

LOL! that's exACTly what i'm afraid of, zar, your enthusiastic response and defense! LOL! i sometimes feel like an idiot for not agreeing with you!

but i will say this, it's been a pretty long time since i read the darkness that comes before and at this point, having read so much erikson, gabaldon, and martin, i'd be hard pressed to remember enough of bakker to make anything close to an intelligent commentary on why i don't like it.
and i'll go one further, i'll re-read darkness and possibly the second book.
i'm at a standstill for something new to read and was considering a re-read of gabaldon cause i think the next book in the series may be coming out in november, but i'll do the bakker first and see if i can get beyond the second book. i actually purchased the third one but it sat on my shelf forever before i finally conceeded i had no desire to read it and sent it to my brother or someone. (can't remember who at this point)

anyway, i'll give it another try for the sake of some good conversation.

and for what it's worth, neuropath did cause me to think a LOT about how i felt about the subject matter. in that respect, it was a good book.

[Avatar]

I quite liked the third book actually.

--A

[Holsety]

LOL! that's exACTly what i'm afraid of, zar, your enthusiastic response and defense! LOL! i sometimes feel like an idiot for not agreeing with you!

At least you have the luxury of not always feeling like an idiot...

Since we're back to discussion of the first few books, I'll say that I thought that the achievement of The Thousandfold Thought, which I think might have been done in The Warrior Prophet, was really excellently done.

[Zarathustra]

Well, I finished White Luck Warrior. It was good up to a point, but (as noted above) started to drag. I was hoping the end would redeem it, but it only made it worse. Anticlimactic. Disappointing.

Spoiler time ....

The fulfillment of Achamian's two-book quest was given exactly one paragraph. A paragraph which had only one sentence! The map was found in the library, apparently just lying around in the debris. Debris of a dragon living in the destroyed library for centuries, and then two wizards fighting this dragon in a battle that should have brought the place down. How did Akka find this small item among the rubble? No clue. It's almost as if Bakker was too stumped how to solve that problem, so he just ignored it. He ignored it in the most extreme example of minimalist writing I've ever seen, especially given this is nearly a 600 page book. One sentence! The magical cloak Mimara found was given more time.

And this is just the worst example of anticlimactic endings. The Cleric dies after one cant. A simple stun cant. After living for 1000s of years, defeating multiple dragons and who-knows-what-else, this mighty mage whom Bakker spent two books building up as some mysterious badass was felled by Akka's first, most simple attack.

And then the final instance of anticlimactic endings was Ishual itself. After spending 600 pages crossing an enormous distance and suffering innumerable trials, Akka and Mimara find Ishual (which is about half the distance again) in about five pages. And Ishual is dead, deserted. Yawn.

Pointless. Futile. Waste of time. That applies both to Akka's quest and, consequently, reading this book. Sweet Sejenus, this man certainly does not write his books for the endings like Donaldson does.

Now granted, Ishual could only appear to be deserted, but I went back and read the beginning of TDTCB and it appears that Kellhus's people kill themselves after he leaves. This doesn't mean that some clue to Kell's origins is not still there, but after so many dead cities, so much rememberence of places I don't really care about, having the conclusion end with just another one is depressing.

Depressed, pissed off, disappointed, and feeling like you've wasted your time is not how you should feel after finishing a book. After this ending, I'm ranking this book just barely above the third weak installment--which suffered for exactly the same reasons: weak, anticlimactic ending.

I'm starting to wonder if there really is anything to this. I read elsewhere that he expanded his story idea into more volumes than originally intended to "explore more characters and themes," but it merely feels like he expanded it for more money. Whatever the reason, it definitely feels expanded beyond what the story would require. And even if that's to explore a bunch of characters (who die pointlessly in anticlimactic ways), it's still something that should not be apparent when you read it.

Boo, hiss.

[SerScot]

Zarathustra,

I'll finish this series but I find Bakker so dark and depressing. I feel like I need a shower when I finish one of his books.

[Holsety]

So I have a question,
does anyone have any knowledge of where the ruling that the practice of sorcery will damn someone's soul comes from within Tuskology? Is it inscribed on the Tusk itself? Handed down by the prophet of the Tusk proceeding Kellhus, whose name I forget? An additional censure written by the church of the Tusk following the death of the prophet? It's just a question I have regarding the changing of the rules within the religion of the Tusk, since IIRC when Kellhus became the human-accepted prophet of Tuskology - though apparently one not accepted by the conservative branch of Tuskology, and possibly not the gods - he lifted the soul-searing censure on sorcery.

[I'm Murrin]

Probably in the original Tusk, but it hasn't been specified. I expect the fact they have a visible mark that looks wrong to other magic users is what keeps it going, rather than the word of any prophet. Mimara's Judging Eye confirms the damnation, also.

Kellhus' declaration that the damnation is not irreversible is entirely self-serving.

[Zarathustra]

I think Murrin is exactly right. I'd only add that magic alters reality in an unnatural way, against the "laws" of nature. It takes the structures of reality and and breaks them, in a sense, in order to enact the will of the wizard in opposition to the way the world should be. It's like playing god, except going against his will and destroying rather than creating.

I find it fascinating that the ugliness of "the mark" is contrasted with the beautiful geometric order of the magic itself. If magic is so unnatural and wrong, why is its manifestation always beautiful and orderly?

[I'm Murrin]

Isn't the explanation that they're speaking some derivation of the language of God that was used to create the world? Hence, it has beauty, but is not meant for them to use.

[I'm Murrin]

Having just finished The White-Luck Warrior, a few thoughts.

- Sorweel, Serwa, and Moenghus are heading to Ishterebinth, where we know from Nil'giccas that the Nonmen serve Golgotterath. Interested to see where that goes.

- Akka's dreams have only ever been about two people: Seswatha, and Anasurimbor Nau-Cayuti. The prince survived his wife's assassination through the intervention of Aurang, who took him back to Golgotterath, and the man chained waiting to enter the gold room was him. The change in dreams is interesting when you also consider that Seswatha might be Nau-Cayuti's real father. The fact that Nau-Cayuti might still be alive thanks to the Consult is even more so.

- Regarding Ishual: Surely Kellhus is smart enough to know that he had to kill the other Dunyain afer killing Moenghus. They would have followed the Thousandfold Thought down the same path that Moenghus would have.

[Zarathustra]

So Murrin, were you also disappointed in the ending?