Religious/familial conundrum

[SoulQuest1970]

I have a problem. My brother... the one married to the uh... challenging... wife. Well, we were all raised Catholic and it is kinda a family thing to be Catholic (I'm a Catholic/Pagan hybrid). Well this brother and his wife have gone fundamentalist Christian. I have no problem with them choosing that beleif system if that is what they really want, but my sister-in-law is calling us Wiccans because we like Harry Potter, etc. Ok, fine. I've known many wonderful Wiccans, so I am not offended even though we aren't Wiccans. The problem is no matter how polite I am, she keeps pressing to get into my home. She also presses to watch my kids so she can tell them they are going to go to hell. *sigh* I've told my brother that she hurts my kids feelings (especially Alex) so the answer is no. I want to hang out with my neice and nephew, but I refuse to let my kids be alone with them... mostly her. I beleive there is truth and beauty in all religions, but I also believe no one has the right to judge another person for thier beleifs. That is not up to us, it's up to God, Goddess, Creator, etc. I've told my brother that you can preach at someone till you are blue in the face and get nowhere. What matters most is how you live and treat other people. When people are around me, they tend to have a positive experience. They find out I am Catholic and realize they have had a good experience with someone that is Catholic. I have been around many people of all different beleifs and I will say that I go by how someone lives by thier beleifs regardless of the beleif and how they treat me. Arg... anyway, my point is does anyone have any other ideas how to handle this situation tactfully? Keep in mind my sister-in-law has a very low IQ, Epilepsy, Cerebal Palsey and well... a bad disposition. My brother is sweet, but has schizoeffective disorder, epilepsy, and is kinda a weenie.

[Plissken]

My first thought is that you're going to have to sit down and talk to both your brother and his wife. They need to know that, while you appreciate their concern for the immortal souls of your children, right now it is your job to see to it that their physical, mental, spiritual, and social well-being is cared for, and that it is a job you take too seriously to allow others to "take over" for you.

If they can't respect that, fine. They're just going to have to be somewhere other than where your kids are. Remember that, at the end of the day, the raising and care for your kids is your first and only priority. You need not apologise for any hurt feelings that prioritization causes - especially for the feelings of those who do not care if they hurt those of your kids.

[SoulQuest1970]

Thanks for the input. I agree about my kids and I have no qualms about sheltering them from this. Thier aunt tends to be emotionally abusive so I already limit contact to supervised visits. If my brother is around she is not abusive, but as soon as he is gone or asleep she is nasty. This is nothing new. Now she is using religion to do it.

What I am most concerned about is my neice and nephew. She is 8 and he is almost 2. They have no one to play with anymore because there are charges of verbal assult against thier mom for yelling out an 11 year old kid and her mom for stomping my neice's toe... apparently hurt it pretty bad. At any rate there is a restraining order. CPS has been called at least 4 times on them (I think they were involved in Colorado too). My neice talks to Alex and she is not a stupid kid. She knows her mom is mean to people. My biggest concern is for thier welfare. In the investigations, it is hard to prove emotional abuse so she has not lost the kids. My dad is secretly hoping that when she goes to court about these charges she will do the predicatable thing and go off on the judge and maybe my brother will wake up and see she is a mean, unfit mother... NOT because of her "disabilities." I know many disabled people who are wonderful parents. He blames everything on her disability.

Long and short, I want my kids to play with thier cousins and I want because they WANT too. Also, I want my neice and nephew to know I adore them and nothing thier mom can do will make me stop loving them. One day they are likely to run away from home and I want them to know where they can go.

[Avatar]

That's a hell of a tough one SQ. If you want the kids to play together more, how about offering to your brother to watch their kids every now and then? "So that they can have some time together without them." That way, you get to supervise the visit?

Sounds like you've got the other issue well in hand. The best you can do is what you're doing anyway...provide the good example their kids need.

--A

[Plissken]

And testifying at any trials that come up might not be such a bad thing, either. She stomped on her 8 year-old's toe? I'll bet it hurt pretty bad - even if the damage wasn't physical. As far as I'm concerned, the (stupid, epileptic, shakey) bitch should go to Hell - perhaps after a few year stop at jail.

(I have a very low tolerance for child abuse - even when it's performed by the handicapped and religiously xenophopic.)

[SoulQuest1970]

That's a hell of a tough one SQ. If you want the kids to play together more, how about offering to your brother to watch their kids every now and then? "So that they can have some time together without them." That way, you get to supervise the visit?

Sounds like you've got the other issue well in hand. The best you can do is what you're doing anyway...provide the good example their kids need.

--A

I've offered, but for years she has considered me the evil one because... sit down if you aren't... because her daughter... ADORES me! She does not want her daughter loving anyone but her... too late. So she will not let me watch her kids, but she expects me to let her watch mine. Hm.... I'm always loving toward her kids, but she hurts my kids feelings. Interesting. Oh, sure... I'd let her watch mine... NOT!

[SoulQuest1970]

And testifying at any trials that come up might not be such a bad thing, either. She stomped on her 8 year-old's toe? I'll bet it hurt pretty bad - even if the damage wasn't physical. As far as I'm concerned, the (stupid, epileptic, shakey) bitch should go to Hell - perhaps after a few year stop at jail.

(I have a very low tolerance for child abuse - even when it's performed by the handicapped and religiously xenophopic.)

Actually it was the 11 year old child that stomped her toe. The kid actually bloodied it up really bad... not quite bad enough for stitches. As for your further assessment, I agree 100%.

[Menolly]

How new to fundamentalist Chr-stianity are they? Perhaps they are in the exhilirating newbie mode, and over time y'all will be able to get together with only an occasional comment about being 'born again' during grace or some such?

:::went through this with my best friend in high school, who also went from Catholicism to Southern Baptist. Nothing seems to thrill a young new Southern Baptist more than the challenge of a questioning (at the time) observant Jew:::

[SoulQuest1970]

They are very new to it. Honestly, I knowing them as I do, I think it is a passing phase. My other sister-in-law thinks so too. They are very lonely people. My brother has friends, but no one really likes his wife because she isn't nice to anyone. The people at this church are nice to them and helpful. If I thought this would last and actually help, more power to them. I just don't think ANYONE or ANY spiritual community can change this woman. If they do stick with it, I know my brother will chill out, but she won't. She will find ANY reason to be ugly to another person... especially my kids... mainly Alex.

[Plissken]

Went through a similar experience with my Best Friend from childhood and Mormonism. There was no "going to Hell" talk, but he was totally taken from me and absorbed into the God Family-Centric life of that religion. (And his wife and her entire family constantly go around with that "I Smell Something Bad And Haven't Yet Identified What It Is" look that is so popular among members of certain Protestant sects. I can't stand that look!)

I do worry about how his boys are going to end up - but I suppose that you can't really call raising a boy to believe that he'll hold the keys to Heaven and Hell over his future wife abuse, exactly...

[Menolly]

They are very new to it. Honestly, I knowing them as I do, I think it is a passing phase. My other sister-in-law thinks so too. They are very lonely people. My brother has friends, but no one really likes his wife because she isn't nice to anyone. The people at this church are nice to them and helpful. If I thought this would last and actually help, more power to them. I just don't think ANYONE or ANY spiritual community can change this woman. If they do stick with it, I know my brother will chill out, but she won't.

Give it a good year then. The church members are going out of their way to be nice to the 'new members.' If your SIL is as nasty as you say, once the new member welcome wears off, she'll probably distance herself from that church.

She will find ANY reason to be ugly to another person... especially my kids... mainly Alex.

{{{Alex}}}

Is it a male thing with her? Or are there other reasons for her to single him out? Having an aspie myself, it is so hard to see how adults think they are disciplining him for what they see as bad or inappropriate behavior, when all he is dfoing is taking his time processing the new situation. :::sigh:::

[SoulQuest1970]

Oh, Alex is a girl... Alexandra Andromeda. lol She doesn't like Alex because she is a lot like me. Last year she told Alex that she "is a little b**ch just like your mother." Nice... isn't she?

[Plissken]

Did anyone ever kick this woman's ass? Being a guy, I can't advocate violence against women - but damn...

[High Lord Tolkien]

Oh, Alex is a girl... Alexandra Andromeda. lol She doesn't like Alex because she is a lot like me. Last year she told Alex that she "is a little b**ch just like your mother." Nice... isn't she?

Wait.
Time out.
Stop.
This one comment said to my child, in my house/family, would earn your sister-in-law and your brother a family banning.
She and he would be dead to me.
I'd do what you can for your nieces and nephews but I'd never expose my kids to their parents again.
Good luck.

[Menolly]

I'm right there with you, HLT.

[SoulQuest1970]

Oh, Alex is a girl... Alexandra Andromeda. lol She doesn't like Alex because she is a lot like me. Last year she told Alex that she "is a little b**ch just like your mother." Nice... isn't she?

Wait.
Time out.
Stop.
This one comment said to my child, in my house/family, would earn your sister-in-law and your brother a family banning.
She and he would be dead to me.
I'd do what you can for your nieces and nephews but I'd never expose my kids to their parents again.
Good luck.

I wish it were only that easy. As a single mom I am very much in need for my dad to help with the kids so I can work. He keeps his own contact limited, but he doesn't want his grandkids to suffer by not seeing him. We have limited contact with them and keep it supervised now. When she said this to Alex, it was when she was alone in the van with them one more as they were leaving for school BEFORE my parents got out to the van. She is not bright, but she is smart enough to not say these things around my parents or my brother. My brother beleives her when he asks and she swears she never said it. Personally, Alex would not make something like that up. My brother is a nice guy, but never doubts his wife. Big mistake. Dad hopes this court thing will make him wise up.

[SoulQuest1970]

Alex is like a little adult. She always has been. I will admit she tends to talk down to her aunt and psychoanylize her. Sadly, my 11 year is quite capable of doing this.

[Waddley]

Now... my people realtions aren't always that productive in a diplomatic sense, but have you, (or anyone else) just told her straight up "Hey, you're mean to the kids and they don't like being around you. You are not going to get to be alone with them. Ever." I don't think that beating around bushes and manners are going to help at all in her case.

My dad had to tell his sister something similar (for completely different reasons) a long time ago. He was blunt, but it worked.

As for HER kids... I don't know what to tell you there. But, I know a few kids who grew up in psycho-religious households and they turned out just fine. Support them how you can and when they come of age to run away... well, at least they'll know they have somewhere safe to go.

[SoulQuest1970]

Now... my people realtions aren't always that productive in a diplomatic sense, but have you, (or anyone else) just told her straight up "Hey, you're mean to the kids and they don't like being around you. You are not going to get to be alone with them. Ever." I don't think that beating around bushes and manners are going to help at all in her case.

My dad had to tell his sister something similar (for completely different reasons) a long time ago. He was blunt, but it worked.

As for HER kids... I don't know what to tell you there. But, I know a few kids who grew up in psycho-religious households and they turned out just fine. Support them how you can and when they come of age to run away... well, at least they'll know they have somewhere safe to go.

Oh, yeah, been there, done that. In fact, my cool sister-in-law had a screamfest reading her the riot act day before yesterday. My dad beats around the bush trying to keep peace. I say it in a forward, but reasonably pleasant manner. I absolutely refuse to be ugly toward her because that would give her satisfaction. Also, been there, done that with being ugly in return. My cool sister-in-law is rarely pleasant and ALWAYS blunt lol.

[Menolly]

OK, so on your part I feel you need to instill in Alex the idea that even when being treated ugly, she has to at least act respectful to her elders in their presence. That includes not talking down to anyone. If she must see her aunt, that includes her. Gives your SIL less ammunition to turn against Alex.

However, you also must tell Alex to continue to inform you of any abusive behavior, even verbal, on her aunt's part. And, IMHO, you should instruct her on when calling 911 for abuse would be justified.