Haruchai's mental speech

Post by **iQuestor** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:02 am

OK So the Haruchai bloodguard speak to each other mentally.

Was this ability a side effect of the Vow, endowed to them by Earthpower to better serve the Lords (along with enhanced sight, constitution, relief from the need to sleep or eat), or is it an inherent characteristic of the entire Haruchai race?

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:56 am

All of the non-Bloodguard Haruchai we've ever seen had the telepathic thing. Those who took the Vow did not, as far as anyone knows, expect the Earthpower to do anything, and I don't think they asked it to. I don't think it did anything other than take away their need for sleep and their aging.

Post by **Cameraman Jenn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:15 am

They had the mind speech thing long before they encountered the Lords. I think they also had unusual endurance as well since they were a competitive warrior society. I think the only thing the Vow did was prolong their lives beyond an already extended life expectancy.

Post by **danlo** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:26 am

Did the Old Lords have mindspeak? I kinda like the theory that the Bloodguard taught it to Kevin's council.

Post by **Cameraman Jenn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:33 am

As far as I know, only the Haruchai and the Elohim have mindspeak. If you recall, the Lords were always devising ways of communication over distances. For example, the original use of the (crap, forgot it's name) wood piece that Hollian wields was to communicate just as the original use of the orcrest was also communication. Is it lomilliar rod?

Post by **danlo** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:20 am

no, Prothall's council had mindspeak, or mindmeld, as did Mhoram's that's what I mean...was some form of that originally taught to them by the Haruchai/Bloodguard?

Post by **Avatar** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:02 am

Out of interest, where did we first learn that the Haruchai did have this mindspeak? I know that it is mentioned in Gildenfire, but I remember being quite surprised at learning about it in the 2nd Chrons.

Is it mentioned anywhere in the 1st Chrons apart from Gildenfire?

--A

Post by **iQuestor** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:21 am

Fist and Faith wrote:All of the non-Bloodguard Haruchai we've ever seen had the telepathic thing. Those who took the Vow did not, as far as anyone knows, expect the Earthpower to do anything, and I don't think they asked it to. I don't think it did anything other than take away their need for sleep and their aging.

which non-haruchai did we meet who had it? I thought all of the bloodguard did have it!

Post by **Warmark** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:26 am

iQuestor wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:All of the non-Bloodguard Haruchai we've ever seen had the telepathic thing. Those who took the Vow did not, as far as anyone knows, expect the Earthpower to do anything, and I don't think they asked it to. I don't think it did anything other than take away their need for sleep and their aging.
which non-haruchai did we meet who had it? I thought all of the bloodguard did have it!

The haruchai in the Second Chrons are not Bloodgaurd, but still have the ability.

I also like the idea that the Bloodgaurd taught the New Lords the Mildmeld, im pretty sure theres a topic on that somewhere.

Post by **Cole** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:09 pm

Warmark wrote:
iQuestor wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:All of the non-Bloodguard Haruchai we've ever seen had the telepathic thing. Those who took the Vow did not, as far as anyone knows, expect the Earthpower to do anything, and I don't think they asked it to. I don't think it did anything other than take away their need for sleep and their aging.
which non-haruchai did we meet who had it? I thought all of the bloodguard did have it!
The haruchai in the Second Chrons are not Bloodgaurd, but still have the ability.

I also like the idea that the Bloodgaurd taught the New Lords the Mildmeld, im pretty sure theres a topic on that somewhere.

I have a question actually. When did/do the Haruchai take the vow? Do they do it as they rock up to Lords Keep after one of their number has died or did they all take it the start and (presumably) when they are born? It only comes in to effect when they are called upon to serve the lords? Is it literally a vow or just a way of describing their service?

The point being they if they all signed up for the vow at the start it may have changed them all, even the non-bloodguard haruchai, alowing for the mind-speech.

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:20 pm

According to Gilden-fire, both tribes of the Haruchai had telepathic ability. Even though SRD considers Gilden-fire to be outside of the TC continuity, it's still a good reference the the history of the Haruchai. (Personally, I consider Gilden-fire to be inside the Chronicles continuity.)

Marvin, if you don't have GildenFire I would highly recommend it.

I doubt that the Haruchai taught the New Lords how to mind meld. I believe it's a trick they learned for themselves.

Post by **iQuestor** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:20 pm

It was discussed in Gilden Fire. Korik, Morin were there.

Post by **wayfriend** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:24 pm

One thing that always bothered me about the telepathy is that it is mentioned so matter-of-factly in the Second Chronicles, as if we had known about it all along, but I don't recall anything in the First Chronicles about it at all (discounting Gildenfire). Maybe there was some hints that the Haruchai seemed to coordinate themselves without speech, but there was no overt reference to telepathy.

Or am I missing something?

Post by **iQuestor** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:07 pm

I had the same experience. When I read the second chrons, I said "whaaat?" and just thought I had missed something in the first chrons. It was only after I read Gilden-Fire that I realized they had it all along.

Now the bloodguard do have the mental speech in the first chrons, and the Haruchai in Runes also have it, but are they free from the Vow????

Was there ever a release of them from the Vow - ? Was it released when Cail asked permisison to go to the merewives??

Post by **Warmark** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:55 pm

Cail and the other Haruchai in the Second Chrons swore no vows, the Bloodgaurd of TPTP ended the vow when they were corrupted. I think Bannors aging and need for food showed it was finished.

Post by **iQuestor** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:57 pm

I think Bannors aging and need for food showed it was finished.

where was this in the text? I guess I missed it.

Hrmmmm... that works into my story...

Post by **Relayer** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:57 pm

Careful w/ the Runes comments...

The Vow was broken sometime soon after Coercri in TIW, though we don't learn about it until TPTP, as the Bloodguard had all gone home by then. At Revelstone in TWL, Brinn commits the Haruchai to serve Covenant, but not in the manner of a Vow.

I don't remember mindspeech in the 1st Chrons either, but when they mention it in the 2nd I think I remember already knowing about it... whether that's from Gildenfire or elsewhere I don't remember.

Spoiler

At the end of Runes, when Stave is ex-communicated, the Voice tells him he will not be able to share in the mind-speech of any of the Haruchai, not just Masters.

I'd always assumed the New Lords' concept of mind-melding was inspired by what the Haruchai could do, but it's never really discussed how or why they discovered their way of telepathy. IIRC, the Haruchai can mindspeak any time they desire, but the Lords needed to actually use their Lore to come together and accomplish it.

It's interesting that neither of these techniques are the same as mind-reading. Each person can still only "say" what they want to, ie Mhoram withholding the secret of the ROD

Spoiler

or Stave withholding the story of the horserite.

Post by **Warmark** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:59 pm

iQuestor wrote:
I think Bannors aging and need for food showed it was finished.

where was this in the text? I guess I missed it.

Hrmmmm... that works into my story...

It's in TPTP when FoamFollowet, Thomas Covenant and Lena return to the Plains of Ra and meet with Bannor who is now helping tend the Ranyhyn there.

Post by **iQuestor** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:03 pm

It's in TPTP when FoamFollowet, Thomas Covenant and Lena return to the Plains of Ra and meet with Bannor who is now helping tend the Ranyhyn there.

Ahhhh. I forgot that. That is a signal it is time for me to re-read the first chrons.

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:03 pm

Wayfriend wrote:One thing that always bothered me about the telepathy is that it is mentioned so matter-of-factly in the Second Chronicles, as if we had known about it all along, but I don't recall anything in the First Chronicles about it at all (discounting Gildenfire). Maybe there was some hints that the Haruchai seemed to coordinate themselves without speech, but there was no overt reference to telepathy.

Or am I missing something?

The closest example I can think of is on Rivenrock when Bannor and Morin decide to reveal the name of the Seventh Ward. However, the text never actually says that they are using telepathy to communicate.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Haruchai's mental speech

Haruchai's mental speech