Henry VIII

[danlo]

Hopefully, this will be a monthly thing, it's pretty much up to the initial suggester to keep the ball rolling (if it doesn't ). This month we picked Jove's topic on the infamous and forceably influential personage: Henry VIII. Go to the History Topic of the Month voting thread to suggest your topic for June-(if we don't have an immediate concensus I'll put up a poll there)

Here's what Wikipedia says:

"Henry VIII (28 June 1491 - 28 January 1547) was King of England and Lord of Ireland, later King of Ireland, from 22 April 1509 until his death. He was the second monarch of the House of Tudor, succeeding his father, Henry VII. Henry VIII is famous for having been married six times and breaking with the Roman Catholic Church. He wielded perhaps the most unfettered power of any English monarch, and brought about the Dissolution of the Monasteries and the union of England and Wales."

[Damelon]

Good choice!

The ironic thing about Henry VIII, in view of later events, was that he, as a second son, was slated by his father to have a career in the Church. His elder brother Arthur died just after he had married Catherine of Aragon. So Henry, for diplomatic reasons, took Arthur's place in marrying Catherine.

In his youth he was quite athletic, though at the Field of Cloth of Gold a meeting between Henry and King Francis of France in 1520, Francis (also quite athletic) threw Henry over in an impromptu wrestling match.

[Mistress Cathy]

This is so cool.

I will tell you what I remember from my history class on the Renaissance. I will have to do further research but this is off the top of my head.

According to Dr. Retha Warnicke at Arizona State University, Henry was a devout Catholic and used Catholicism to justify his divorce from his first wife, Catharine of Aragon.

Divorce between royals was not uncommon due to the incest laws and the fact that most royals were related.

One way to remember how Henry got rid of his wives is from this:

divorced, beheaded, died; divorced, beheaded, survived.

I will have to look through my notes (If I can even find them) and post more.

[Damelon]

Henry probably would have got his divorce, save for the fact that the Pope was at the time under control of Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor, Spanish King, and Catherine of Aragon's nephew. The Pope didn't dare grant the divorce.

[dlbpharmd]

I'll have to check, but seems like I remember that Henry petitioned the Pope for an annulment from Catherine of Aragon, on the grounds that she had lied about consummating her marriage with Henry's late brother. The Pope refused, leading to the formation of the Church of England, and Henry's divorce.

[Holsety]

Henry probably would have got his divorce, save for the fact that the Pope was at the time under control of Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor, Spanish King, and Catherine of Aragon's nephew. The Pope didn't dare grant the divorce.

That's mad interesting, and I'll def remember it. That's the sorta subsubtext I normally don't hear in history class.

It's interesting that the first 'national split' with the catholic church as an entity started not over heady idealistic conflicts like religious reformations started, but for intensely personal interests.

OR MAYBE IT ISN'T?! Henry maybe wanted independence and used divorce as an excuse to some extent? I dunno! But it's the sorta thing I'd expect in a fantasy novel!

[Damelon]

Well, he wanted a male heir, and Catherine hadn't given it to him. Jove is right, he was a devout Catholic. Earlier he got the Pope to grant the title Fidei defensor or Defender of the Faith, a title similar to the French King's The Most Christian King. It was after he parceled out the monasteries that he, and the great noble families, became anti-catholic.

[Mistress Cathy]

Demelon is correct in that Charles V was occupying the Holy Roman Empire at the time and Catherine of Aragon was his aunt. The pope's hands were in essence, tied.

dlb, you are also correct in that Henry petitioned the Church and if I recall correctly, this had gone on for years. I was just mentioning that divorce was common due to the blood relation between European royals. With Henry, however, it was as you said because of a question of the consummation of Catherine's marriage to his brother.


Henry felt (and argued) that God had cursed his union with no male heir from Catherine because of the question of her consummation of the marriage with his dead brother.

The sad thing was - from my understanding, Henry and Catherine had a very good marriage. They liked - even loved - each other. They were a compatible couple. Thus, the divorce of Catherine was emotionally difficult for Catherine. They had been married what - about 20 years or so? I don't really remember but it was for quite some time.

[matrixman]

From what I understand of the big picture, Henry VIII was the pivotal English ruler who laid the groundwork for imperial expansion. Before him, England was still "merely" an island kingdom; after him, that kingdom was on its way to becoming the global British Empire (reaching its zenith under Queen Victoria's rule).

In that sense, I can respect Henry VIII the historical mover and shaker. But in terms of the man himself...no, there are plenty of other great men in history that I prefer to admire. In general, I'm not enamored by the monarchy or any system of absolute rule, though I will say it delights me in a perverse way thinking how Henry stuck it to the almighty Pope and formed his own Church. Oh Henry! That's right, show those guys who's boss...

[ur-monkey]

I think Elizabeth I (his daughter) deserves equal credit for the consolidation of the power of the English throne. After Henry's death, things were very messy and disunified for eleven years after henry's death until Elizabeth ascended the throne, and by most historical accounts, the movers & shakers of the English court (not to mention her peers around Europe) thought she likewise wouldn't last five minutes.

How wrong they were! (As the Spanish Armada discovered to their extreme cost in 1588...'I may have the body of a weak & feeble woman, BUT...') Good old Stark Raving Mad Queen Bess.

Also in her reign: William Shakespeare, Sir Walter Raleigh...

[Avatar]

Didn't she succeed Mary?

--A

[Damelon]

After Henry VIII was his son Edward VI, who died in his teens, Mary, and then Elizabeth.

[Avatar]

That's it. Bloody Mary they called her.

(Persecuted the Protestants, right? )

--A

[ur-monkey]

They named vodka & tomato juice after her

[dlbpharmd]

That's it. Bloody Mary they called her.

(Persecuted the Protestants, right? )

--A

That's correct, Mary wanted England to return to Catholicism.

[Avatar]

Right, after the Catholic persecution by Henry. And then along came Elizabeth and switched back to the prods.

Government and religion...they're as bad as each other.

--A

[matrixman]

Thanks for straightening me out about Elizabeth I, ur-monkey. There many and large gaps in my knowledge of the English monarchy. I'd read more about the subject matter, but it's so much more convenient to just tune into the History Channel. Also, my deep disdain - all right, call it contempt - for the privileged lives of privileged rulers like monarchs prevents me from reading extensively on them.

But, yes, at least the English royals did some good and in general treated their populace with, um, comparatively less brutality than some other "divine" rulerships in history.

Also, at least it can be said that leaders like Henry VIII (and the others mentioned here) actually led - as opposed to mentally incompetent, ineffectual rulers in history who squandered their country's resources for no reason. Sorry, was I ranting? I return you to regularly scheduled Henry VIII programming (before the Mods ban me)...

[ur-monkey]

Matrixman wrote:

Also, my deep disdain - all right, call it contempt - for the privileged lives of privileged rulers like monarchs prevents me from reading extensively on them.

Hey, ur-monkey ain't no royalist! Have you ever seen the crown jewels? Nothing short of obscene. And they have the front to charge about 20 quid to go and see 'em too! Tsk.

Nah, I'm just simply as addicted to the whole kings & queens romance as the next fantasy buff. As a justification for centuries of despotism, mind, that's pretty lame.