What is your opinion of Dune Messiah.

[lorin]

Before I start listening to it I'd love your opinion. I have to tell you I found Dune mediocre and want to know if it improves or am I wasting my time?

I'm listening to this one on my commute.

[wayfriend]

Dune Messiah and Children of Dune aren't as good as the original. Then comes God Emperor of Dune, which is pretty good. Then comes some other books I can't remember the names of, that aren't as good.

Herbert can be very dry and boring if you're not intrigued by hundreds of pages of people thinking about things.

But Dune the original is the best. It never gets as good as that again. Which I think answers your question.

[lorin]

I guess from what I read, I am in the minority......I just wasnt impressed with Dune. Some aspects of it were intriguing but for the most part I found it one dimensional.

[matrixman]

Ack. You don't like Dune?

(assumes stoic voice)

Concerning Dune Messiah, it is the slimmest volume in the series. One might say it is the calm before the storm in Children of Dune. As duchess at the Hangar pointed out, the first three Dune books form an unofficial trilogy. Getting through Dune Messiah is worth it to get to Children of Dune, which in my opinion stands as tall as the original.

But all this is rather moot. Since you did not find the original to be a meaningful read, I think it unlikely you would gain much from the subsequent books. Like SRD would say, life is too short, and you should not waste it reading books that give you no joy (or meaning, or both).

[Vraith]

Ack. You don't like Dune?

(assumes stoic voice)

Concerning Dune Messiah, it is the slimmest volume in the series. One might say it is the calm before the storm in Children of Dune. As duchess at the Hangar pointed out, the first three Dune books form an unofficial trilogy. Getting through Dune Messiah is worth it to get to Children of Dune, which in my opinion stands as tall as the original.

But all this is rather moot. Since you did not find the original to be a meaningful read, I think it unlikely you would gain much from the subsequent books. Like SRD would say, life is too short, and you should not waste it reading books that give you no joy (or meaning, or both).

Agree completely...if you didn't like Dune, unlikely you'll like the others.
OTOH, if you didn't like Dune...well, nothing bad..there's lots of thinking/examining in Herbert...it's just not to some peoples taste. In a way, though, I find Herbert and Donaldson addressing similar subjects...though SRD definitely does characters better.

[Avatar]

Didn't like Dune? Clearly you have some sort of deficiency...

(Messiah is probably my least favourite of the series...Apart from the first Dune, the best one is God Emperor.)

--A

[lorin]

Didn't like Dune? Clearly you have some sort of deficiency...

(Messiah is probably my least favourite of the series...Apart from the first Dune, the best one is God Emperor.)

--A

I dont know how to explain it. It just seems to me that the characters all fall into their "roles" so easily. Paul becomes a leader so quickly, there was no transition. His mom transitions into her new life, there is no internal struggles. It all seemed so patt, so neat.

I certainly know I am pretty much alone in my opinion. I keep looking for something I missed, some flaw in my interpretation.

[Fist and Faith]

Dune is among the top greatest handful of books I've ever read. Not to say I've read as many books as most here. I'm a slow reader, so I have nothing like the total number of Avatar, duchess, and many others. Still, Dune is the most complex, multi-leveled book I've read.

I've never listened to a book, but I can't imagine it's possible to get all Dune has to offer that way. Not this, of all books. dlb ended up loving Gates of Fire when he listened to it. But that's a much less complex book. Absolutely amazing in its own way, but its own way is much less complex than Dune. I can't imagine getting what it has to offer if you can't reread a sentence or paragraph here and there. You might think something sounded pretty nifty, but you are forced to pay attention to what is being read next, as opposed to stopping to contemplate, or reread. And you might not even be aware that something extraordinary happened because of having to move on immediately.

Your specific problems with it don't take into account the characters' lives. Paul became a leader so quickly because he was trained to do so. His father was a wealthy, powerful duke, and he had the best people in the galaxy train him in every possible way, so that he would be a great duke. AND, his mother was a Bene Gesserit, who, against the rules of her organization (although even her superior silently admitted that she would have done the same), trained her son in their ways. There's no better training. Anywhere. Throw in the fact that Paul was the end-result of millennia of selective breeding, as the Bene Gesserit attempted to produce one extremely specific human... Well, I wouldn't call all of that "easy." Heh.

You don't mention one thing that is of utmost importance about Dune: its history. Maybe a closer look, more thought about, the history would help. Millennia before it, events take place that lead to the development of various societies. The Bene Gesserit. Ginaz swordsmen. Mentats. The Spacing Guild. These organizations don't just conveniently happen to be there. They are the result of huge, huge, huge effort over millennia, all started in reaction to atrocities that dwarf anything we've ever experienced. All of that is why Paul and Jessica were able to do what they did. Not easily, by a long shot. Their transitions into their new lives were the culmination of the work of more years and lives than we can imagine.

[lorin]

Dune is among the top greatest handful of books I've ever read. Not to say I've read as many books as most here. I'm a slow reader, so I have nothing like the total number of Avatar, duchess, and many others. Still, Dune is the most complex, multi-leveled book I've read.

I've never listened to a book, but I can't imagine it's possible to get all Dune has to offer that way. Not this, of all books. dlb ended up loving Gates of Fire when he listened to it. But that's a much less complex book. Absolutely amazing in its own way, but its own way is much less complex than Dune. I can't imagine getting what it has to offer if you can't reread a sentence or paragraph here and there. You might think something sounded pretty nifty, but you are forced to pay attention to what is being read next, as opposed to stopping to contemplate, or reread. And you might not even be aware that something extraordinary happened because of having to move on immediately.

Your specific problems with it don't take into account the characters' lives. Paul became a leader so quickly because he was trained to do so. His father was a wealthy, powerful duke, and he had the best people in the galaxy train him in every possible way, so that he would be a great duke. AND, his mother was a Bene Gesserit, who, against the rules of her organization (although even her superior silently admitted that she would have done the same), trained her son in their ways. There's no better training. Anywhere. Throw in the fact that Paul was the end-result of millennia of selective breeding, as the Bene Gesserit attempted to produce one extremely specific human... Well, I wouldn't call all of that "easy." Heh.

You don't mention one thing that is of utmost importance about Dune: its history. Maybe a closer look, more thought about, the history would help. Millennia before it, events take place that lead to the development of various societies. The Bene Gesserit. Ginaz swordsmen. Mentats. The Spacing Guild. These organizations don't just conveniently happen to be there. They are the result of huge, huge, huge effort over millennia, all started in reaction to atrocities that dwarf anything we've ever experienced. All of that is why Paul and Jessica were able to do what they did. Not easily, by a long shot. Their transitions into their new lives were the culmination of the work of more years and lives than we can imagine.

I am not well read in scifi so as I said, I may have missed something in the reading, which is why I reached out to other readers for feedback. I do understand the history and it is full and fruitful. That is not what I am speaking about when I say there was a lack of complexity in the transition. What I mean is I understand the path the characters take, its just that it happens too quickly.

I did read it years ago, and listened to it recently. I am fully aware that listening loses a lot in translation but unfortunately I do not have much free time so I try to make use of my driving time.

It sounds like I have upset you with my post. That surely wasn't my intention. I guess I would be upset too if I felt someone slammed my favorite book.

[Fist and Faith]

No! Absolutely not at all upset! Honest. It's really not a problem.

Basically, I was saying what I love about the book. First time I read it, when I was maybe 18, I stopped after a hundred or so pages. I thought it was crap. "Hmm, the cover says 'Best sci-fi novel ever written.' Why does it suck?" Heh. But I tried again a few years later, and couldn't imagine what happened. I've read it a few times since, usually when we're going through a particularly hot spell in summer, and cannot imagine a more extraordinary story. I didn't know if you had listened to it or read it, but since you said you were going to listen to Messiah... If you had only listened to it, I was telling you what you missed.

But it's all subjective, eh? I don't care much for Mozart, and he's one of the most beloved composers ever. Bach and Beethoven, among others, for me!

[lorin]

No! Absolutely not at all upset! Honest. It's really not a problem.

Basically, I was saying what I love about the book. First time I read it, when I was maybe 18, I stopped after a hundred or so pages. I thought it was crap. "Hmm, the cover says 'Best sci-fi novel ever written.' Why does it suck?" Heh. But I tried again a few years later, and couldn't imagine what happened. I've read it a few times since, usually when we're going through a particularly hot spell in summer, and cannot imagine a more extraordinary story. I didn't know if you had listened to it or read it, but since you said you were going to listen to Messiah... If you had only listened to it, I was telling you what you missed.

But it's all subjective, eh? I don't care much for Mozart, and he's one of the most beloved composers ever. Bach and Beethoven, among others, for me!

phew............I'm glad I didnt upset you. Like everything in my life, I am going to try to look at it again and give it a second chance. So many people couldnt all be wrong.

[Fist and Faith]

No, it's possible. They're all wrong about Mozart, after all.

[wayfriend]

There was a time where I read everthing of Herbert I could find. His best book, IMO, is White Plague. But I also read the series Ship series: Destination: Void, Jesus Incident, Lazurus Effect, and Ascention Factor -- which is far better than the Dune Series. And also Green Brain, Heaven Makers, Santaroga Barrier, Whipping Star, Soul Catcher, God Makers, Hellstrom's Hive, Heaven Makers, Dosadi Experiment.

Herbert's writing, like a lot of things, is genius, but only when your looking at it from the proper place. You have to be in a Herbert-friendly zone, mentally, to approach him. Cerebral. Philosophical. Existential. Poetic even.

In other words, if your hungry for a action, romance, suspense, or dialog, then he's not what you're looking for. He'll come across as tedious, over-thought, and boring. I recommend reading Malazan instead.

[matrixman]

I've never listened to a book, but I can't imagine it's possible to get all Dune has to offer that way...I can't imagine getting what it has to offer if you can't reread a sentence or paragraph here and there. You might think something sounded pretty nifty, but you are forced to pay attention to what is being read next, as opposed to stopping to contemplate, or reread. And you might not even be aware that something extraordinary happened because of having to move on immediately.

That also sums up nicely why I've never had any real interest in the audio books for TCTC, even though everyone raves about them. I'm sorry, but the joy of the Chronicles is in reading SRD's prose for myself, not in hearing a guy read it to me (no offense to Mr. Scott Brick). Same applies to Dune.

[danlo]

The Dosadi Experiment is excellent Sci Fi. Though it took after a 29 years reread to realize that (even though I loved Jorg X. McKie in Whipping Star...).

[Demondime-a-dozen-spawn]

It's been a long time, but I recall enjoying Dune quite a bit but not being moved at all by any of the sequels. I'm afraid my understanding of this series has been seriously compromised by watching the David Lynch movie version of Dune 957 times.

I've never listened to a book, but I can't imagine it's possible to get all Dune has to offer that way...I can't imagine getting what it has to offer if you can't reread a sentence or paragraph here and there. You might think something sounded pretty nifty, but you are forced to pay attention to what is being read next, as opposed to stopping to contemplate, or reread. And you might not even be aware that something extraordinary happened because of having to move on immediately.

That also sums up nicely why I've never had any real interest in the audio books for TCTC, even though everyone raves about them. I'm sorry, but the joy of the Chronicles is in reading SRD's prose for myself, not in hearing a guy read it to me (no offense to Mr. Scott Brick). Same applies to Dune.

I'm in wholehearted agreement with these sentiments. I love to savor what I read. A turn of phrase, a colorful metaphor, an emotional string played upon. Some passages are almost magical in their poetical construction and I want to dwell on them.

[CovenantJr]

I don't like Dune either, though for different reasons. I just found it excruciatingly boring. Some interesting ideas, but so dully executed as to be practically sedative.

Some have interpreted this as meaning I have a short attention span, but that's not so. I've read and loved some very slow books, some stories that are painstakingly written; it's possible to be both slow and engaging. Dune is not. Dune is boring.

[Avatar]

Et Tu Cj?

I've always looked at Dune as more of a complexly layered socio-religio-political universe, than just a straight-forward story. The machinations that stretch over centuries, millenia...it is, IIRC, set more than 10,000 years in the future...and the entire series covers another five or ten thousand years.

The evolution of that universe has always been fascinating to me.

(Apart from the Dune series, my absolute favourite is Hellstrom's Hive, closely followed by The God-Makers, White Plague, (not really sci-fi btw), and Whipping Star (thanks danlo for making me re-read it with a new appreciation). )

--A

[lorin]

It's been a long time, but I recall enjoying Dune quite a bit but not being moved at all by any of the sequels. I'm afraid my understanding of this series has been seriously compromised by watching the David Lynch movie version of Dune 957 times.

I've never listened to a book, but I can't imagine it's possible to get all Dune has to offer that way...I can't imagine getting what it has to offer if you can't reread a sentence or paragraph here and there. You might think something sounded pretty nifty, but you are forced to pay attention to what is being read next, as opposed to stopping to contemplate, or reread. And you might not even be aware that something extraordinary happened because of having to move on immediately.

That also sums up nicely why I've never had any real interest in the audio books for TCTC, even though everyone raves about them. I'm sorry, but the joy of the Chronicles is in reading SRD's prose for myself, not in hearing a guy read it to me (no offense to Mr. Scott Brick). Same applies to Dune.

I'm in wholehearted agreement with these sentiments. I love to savor what I read. A turn of phrase, a colorful metaphor, an emotional string played upon. Some passages are almost magical in their poetical construction and I want to dwell on them.

One of my huge guilts in my current situation is that I do not read books as often as I should. I totally understand and agree with what you say. But life sometimes gets in the way of living. I try to read as much as possible but the truth is I am in the car 5 hours a day and try to use the time. I know I miss a great deal. Two things though, if it is a good book, I follow up listening by reading it, or I've read the book and then listen to it (which is no different than reading the book and seeing the movie).

I just dont want anyone to think I am lazy, I am just overwhelmed.

[Fist and Faith]

lorin, I just noticed your location. I recently heard that sea turtles come to your area to lay eggs in the spring. That's the coolest thing!! I gotta bring the family down to see that next year!!