is the "apple" in "apple pie" an adjecti

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:14 am

Is the "apple" in "apple pie" an adjective in the following sentence?

"I would like apple pie for lunch tomorrow."

Help solve a heated debate over my daughter's 4th grade home work.
I say it's part of the noun.

Post by **[Syl]** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:19 am

"Apple pie" is a compound noun, formed from a noun plus another noun. Apple is still a noun.

Post by **Orlion** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:28 am

That may be so, but isn't an adjective a word that describes, or gives more information about, the noun it modifies? In this case, 'apple' seems to be acting like an adjective, what kind of pie is it? An apple one. But, then again, according to the Webster online dictionary, apple butter is a noun... so, by analogy, Syl is probably correct... but intuitively...

Post by **Infelice** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:28 am

I think that 'apple' is a noun being used as an adjective to modify another noun.

What kind of pie is it? apple

This reference might help to clarify:

www.usingenglish.com/glossary/noun-as-adjective.html

Post by **Savor Dam** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:38 am

My understanding is the same as Infelice's. Apple in this case is an adjective modifying the noun Pie. Tasty, too.

Fourth grade is too early for distinctions like compound nouns. Each word is a part of speech, and Apple is an adjective for the purposes of this exercise. Points to HLT's daughter if this was her answer.

Post by **aliantha** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:52 am

Make that three votes for Infelice's answer. "Apple" is modifying "pie".

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:55 am

You people are great.
But....i'm still puzzled.
Syl's sounds correct.
I looked up compound noun but even the definition seems to say that the noun turns into an adjective.
I be confused......

Post by **aliantha** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:59 am

That makes sense to me, tho, because it's modifying another noun. It might not actually *be* an adjective, but it's playing one on TV, shall we say.

Post by **[Syl]** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:06 am

I just checked the OED (Draft Revision, September 2009). Apple is listed as a verb or a noun (and apple pie is just a noun, of course. who knew apple pie went back to Middle English?). It is not given anywhere as an adjective, hence, it cannot be an adjective. If it was really meant that way, it would be 'appley pie.' No, it's just a linguistically shortened way for saying 'pie made from apples.' 'Jelly made from grapes, and 'butter made from peanuts' are similar examples. The source material is still a noun. Yes, in a sense, it describes the pie, put so would a simile, and no one would call one an adjective.

If the teacher marks her wrong... fourth grade is as good a time as any to let your kids know teachers can be (and often are) wrong. Either you look at the two separate words before they're compounded and mark it as a noun, or you choose the whole compound noun. Otherwise, you might as well ask what part of speech 'water' is in the word 'watery.'

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:14 am

Syl wrote:I just checked the OED (Draft Revision, September 2009). Apple is listed as a verb or a noun (and apple pie is just a noun, of course. who knew apple pie went back to Middle English?). It is not given anywhere as an adjective, hence, it cannot be an adjective. If it was really meant that way, it would be 'appley pie.' No, it's just a linguistically shortened way for saying 'pie made from apples.' 'Jelly made from grapes, and 'butter made from peanuts' are similar examples. The source material is still a noun. Yes, in a sense, it describes the pie, put so would a simile, and no one would call one an adjective.

If the teacher marks her wrong... fourth grade is as good a time as any to let your kids know teachers can be (and often are) wrong. Either you look at the two separate words before they're compounded and mark it as a noun, or you choose the whole compound noun. Otherwise, you might as well ask what part of speech 'water' is in the word 'watery.'

Awesome!
I get it now and you explained it in a way I can explain to her.
Thanks.

Post by **Orlion** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:35 am

Well, if that's settled, allow me to hijack this thread

Syl wrote: If the teacher marks her wrong... fourth grade is as good a time as any to let your kids know teachers can be (and often are) wrong.

Tell me about it, in 7th grade, I had a homework problem that asked "Who was the first Jew?" I knew they were looking for 'Abraham' as the answer, but lo, my dad decided to check up on my homework this one day. A two hour lecture followed on how Abraham was a Hebrew, and how the correct answer would be Juda. When he followed up on how the homework went, he found out it was marked wrong, he gave the teacher the same lecture and I got the point back. The punchline? A couple of years later, my sister had the exact same experiance with the same teacher

Post by **[Syl]** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:49 am

Heh. Luckily I've moved across the country or my old teachers would see my son coming a mile away and just roll their eyes. My German teacher once yelled out 'Go ask Dustin and [his girlfriend]!' when someone had a question after we just got done asking about something that didn't make sense to us.

My son's bringing home stuff for Thanksgiving now, and I'm wondering how much to tell him.

And looking at wikipedia, it seems that apple could be a modifier or an attributive noun, but definitely not an adjective.

Post by **matrixman** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:23 am

Why couldn't I get you as my dad, Syl?

I thought most of my teachers were full of it.

Post by **wayfriend** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:09 pm

I'm disagreeing with Syl, and agreeing with Infelice. Any noun can be used as an adjective; it doesn't require that every noun be listed as an adjective in the dictionary.

There's probably a good rule of thumb for when something is a compound noun, and when it is a noun-used-as-an-adjective modifying another noun.

Most examples of compound nouns I see - toothpaste, blackboard - are either two words made into a single word, or two words made into a single hyphenated word.

But it also is stated that a compound noun can be made from an adjective and a noun. For example, "full moon". And note that the adjective need not be a noun-used-as-an-adjective.

Supposition: compound noun is a description of a sentence construct, like subject or clause or compound predicate, and not necessary a description of the role of a single word.

In any event: if "apple pie" is a compound noun, it doesn't tell us what "apple" is. And if a compound noun can be an adjective+noun, then there's no reason that "apple" cannot be an adjective despite "apple pie" being a compound noun.

I would not bring too many teacher mistakes to the teacher's attention. You'll get pidgeon-holed as a trouble-making parent. It might be wiser to teach your kids that sometimes the ref makes a bad call and you have to live with the consequences even when its not fair.

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:15 pm

That pie was very apple, eh?

Post by **[Syl]** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:51 pm

Murrin wrote:That pie was very apple, eh?

Zing!

I would not bring too many teacher mistakes to the teacher's attention. You'll get pidgeon-holed as a trouble-making parent.

Good. Parents who make trouble get things done. I've seen it first hand. It's the kids whose parents don't give a damn who are left to the whims of school policy.

It might be wiser to teach your kids that sometimes the ref makes a bad call and you have to live with the consequences even when its not fair.

Sure, if you don't want to instill in them the courage to see through their convictions.

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:03 pm

Syl wrote:
I would not bring too many teacher mistakes to the teacher's attention. You'll get pidgeon-holed as a trouble-making parent.
Good. Parents who make trouble get things done. I've seen it first hand. It's the kids whose parents don't give a damn who are left to the whims of school policy.

ayeup.
Ask any parent who deals with IEP "teams."
Mama Bear's (or Papa Bear's, if he's available) claws must come out on occasion.

Post by **Avatar** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:10 pm

In Poor Richard's Almanack was wrote:'Tis the duty of the student
in all things to be prudent.
And if smarter than his teacher, tact
demand that he conceal the fact.

--A

Post by **Vader** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:57 pm

If it's an adjective comparison should work (unless "apple" semantically is in the same boat as "dead", "asleep" and and "pregnant").

Rule: adjectives with two syllabels ending with -er, -le, -y, -ow require -ier/iest for comparison,

Try it yourselves:

"My pie is applier then yours, but her pie is the appliest." Does that really work?

Post by **wayfriend** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:15 pm

Not sure if that rule would apply to nouns-used-as-adjectives, Vader. (And Murrin!)

And I would also say that yes, it is semantically in the same boat as dead, asleep, and pregnant.

And Syl, Mennolly, my daughter was put in one second grade class while all her friends were put in another; she was put in one third grade class while all her new second grade friends were put in another; fourth grade same. Retribution for being trouble-making parents. So now we pick and choose our battles more carefully. We don't make a stink about every grade on every homework assignment. Think about me what you will.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

is the "apple" in "apple pie" an adjecti

is the "apple" in "apple pie" an adjecti