Re-reading Mordant's Need *Spoilers*

[Orlion]

So, I was thinking, I need to re-read Mordant's Need... and take notes, while I'm at it. I'll post my thoughts in this thread, and if anyone wishes to join me, please do so.

I'm not posting in the dissection, since I'd like to refer to things that may be considered spoilers. This way means more freedom!

[Avatar]

Cool. I'm about to do a reread of it myself. Will probably get started this coming week.

--A

[Rigel]

Funnily enough, I just started a re-read a few days ago. Maybe we're all prepping for AATE by spending time away from the Chronicles? Unconsciously prepping ourselves for the overdose to come

[matrixman]

We all know SRD must write The Last Chronicles of Mordant. (Er, the Last Need of Mordant?)

But, yes, Orlion, have at it!

[Avatar]

Well, started my reread today. Been a long time actually.

--A

[Avatar]

So, I'm about 150 pages in and I'm finding Teresa more insipid than ever. I get that it's the opposite of the Chrons, with a character who believes in the fantasy world, but not in her own existence, rather than the reverse, but sheesh...he has a knack for writing characters you just don't like.

--A

[Rigel]

he has a knack for writing characters you just don't like.

I don't see it that way; rather, he writes characters that are broken. For instance, see the Castellan.

[matrixman]

Well, Av, you're certainly not alone in that sentiment. I personally don't share it - "insipid" is too harsh a word, in my opinion. But I know others here haven't found the initial setup of Terisa's character to be very convincing.

All I can say is that I didn't have too much trouble seeing things from her perspective. It's funny, though: I remember when my sister read the book, she pretty much had the same reaction to Terisa as you: smack some sense into this woman who's wallowing in this existential crap. (That's probably how a lot of people feel about Linden Avery, too.) Have I got that right? But that's not how I react to these characters.

It is just a little scary how closely I connect with SRD's female characters. Am I that messed up myself or what?

Oops, Rigel snuck in. Good point!

[Cameraman Jenn]

CREEPY! I just started a re-read of MN yesterday. Actually it's my favorite series of SRD's and yes, I'll state yet again that I have said that to his face. Terisa is not insipid. She's been subjugated into submission from day one of her life. Did you not catch the maltreatment of her in chapter one by her parents, both of them? Did you not catch the extent of her abuse by her search of the wardrobe from fear of being locked in the closet until she could be silent? Her father's dismissal of anyone who paid her more than a passing glance? For her to actually take her life into her own hands and make the jump through the mirror with Gerarden was HUGE. Insipid people don't make HUGE leaps of faith on a whim. She's spent her whole life having any sign of assertiveness or personality abused out of her so it takes an impossible situation for her to finally reassert herself and she starts doing so almost from the very beginning with Gerarden, the King, Havelock and Quillion as well as Reverend Thatcher. She's not insipid, she's terrified and overly conditioned. If you want insipid, read George RR Martin and take a long look at Sansa Stark as she is until about halfway into book three.

MM, you are not odd for relating to SRD's females. He's a guy. He writes women ok on many levels but he ALWAYS writes them as weak going on strong. His female characters follow a more traditional pattern of fantasy hero than his male ones do. Take the Gap series for example, the men start out strong in machismo and end up screwed. Most fantasy has male heroes. We expect that and relate to it. That is why you relate better when he has female heroes. They make themselves better, Terisa, Morn, Linden has yet to prove out, Myste, Elega, Torrence and even in his short stories it rings true. Many of his strong male characters become weak or flawed worse, Nick, Eremis, Angus (weak because he's controlled and not truly acting on his own), and the list goes on. Does that help at all?

Incidentally, the Tor and Ribuld are two of my very favorite characters from SRD's writing ever.

[danlo]

Very good points!!!

[Avatar]

I don't see it that way; rather, he writes characters that are broken. For instance, see the Castellan.

Lebbick is an awesome character broken indeed...tragic, brilliant. But Teresa is too broken. It's almost as if she is characterless. It just doesn't feel as believable to me as it could be.

Jenn, good point about the reversal in the Gap. I get that she was neglected of course, which can obviously be a form of abuse. But she wasn't beaten into submission for example.

I don't think her decision to go with Geraden is necessarily proof that she's not insipid.

Bland. A lack of distinctive, appealing, or energetic character;

I think she didn't have the character to refuse him. (Although who would...I mean...another world...) (On that note in fact, she never once doubts the reality of the world she goes to. Never even wonders if it's a dream. )

Perhaps it's because I like strong women that I find her so unpalatable. Her sheer passivity in the face of everything is annoying. More annoying than TC's refusal...at least refusal is a stance.

I can't wait until

Spoiler

we find out Eremis is a bad guy and Teresa starts developing some backbone.

She definitely improves later.

Maybe my dislike stems from the fact that I've never ever had problems with my own existence. It's the existence of everybody else I've always struggled to believe in.

--A

[wayfriend]

It's almost as if she is characterless.

Isn't that the point, as the book starts?

Maybe my dislike stems from the fact that I've never ever had problems with my own existence.

I do think that dislike of Terisa and dislike of Linden go hand in hand.

Both of them have personal problems that arise from the way they have been treated in life. Someone might understand and respect problems like Covenant has, that arise from other kinds of factors, but they will read about someone like Linden and Terisa and say, why can't they just get over it?

[Avatar]

Thing is, I don't dislike Linden. (Or I didn't, until the last Chrons. Never had any problem with her in the 2nd.)

And yeah, I guess that is the point. I think I just feel it's overdone.

--A

[High Lord Tolkien]

I love Terisa.
Never thought she was weak or insipid.
And I thought she reacted well with what she was exposed to.

Perhaps it's because it was a new world that I was learning about along with her. Her faults were my own too.

Whereas with Linden I keep waiting for her to shut up err....I mean catch up.


MN is also one of my favorite series (do 2 books = a "series"?).

The ending where all the pieces fall into place was very well done.

[Rigel]

Jenn, good point about the reversal in the Gap. I get that she was neglected of course, which can obviously be a form of abuse. But she wasn't beaten into submission for example.

While her parents never beat her, I'd say that locking her in the closet while they ignored her counts as beating her into submission.

One of my favorite things about SRD's writing is not his portrayal of broken characters, but his ability to help the reader empathize with them. I can't help but participate in Terisa's existential panic attacks as I encounter them in the story.

[Cameraman Jenn]

And doing nothing to comfort or bandage and rather telling her to go to her room when she is bleeding profusely from her knee is abuse of a sort. Av, I have to argue about her never questioning the reality of Mordant. She does so quite a bit in the beginning of "Mirror of Her Dreams."

Some quotes:

pg. 104-105, paperback, "Sunlight from the windows awakened her the next morning. At first, she doubted everything. Wasn't this the bed in her apartment, the place where she belonged?"
pg. 105, paperback, "When she looked toward the windows, she hesitated. She wasn't sure that she was ready to see what lay outside. The view might confirm or deny the entire situation."

Also, her insipidness. I seriously don't find that to be true. She's ready to make a change and to change her life and I'll again quote but this time I'm going to underline the words I think make all the difference between insipid and inspired.

pg. 26, last part of chapter one:
" "I'm not an Imager, " She replied. "I don't dream very often."
Her protest was automatic, however, not urgent. She was hardly listening to herself. Because her dreams were so rare, they made powerful impressions on her.
And in her dreams she had remained passive and unimportant while three riders had charged forward to kill her and a man she didn't even know risked his life to save her. A man like Geraden. Everything she disliked about herself held her back--- her unreality, her fear of her father and punishment, her inability to have any meaningful effect on her own life. But Geraden still held out his hand to her.
She couldn't help noticing that it was nicked and bruised in several places, and one of his fingernails was torn. Still she thought it was a good hand -- sturdy and faithful.
It made her think of horns.
Their call carried her fear away.
"But, "she went on, and each word was a surprise to her conjured by unexpected music out of the ache in her heart, "I think I would like to find out what's been hiding on the other side of my mirrors all this time." "

[Avatar]

While her parents never beat her, I'd say that locking her in the closet while they ignored her counts as beating her into submission.

I hadn't gotten there yet. In fact, I was headed to this thread to post about that very incident, and give her a little more credit than I had been doing.

And Jen, some fair points. I'll certainly grant that she was trying to change her attitude. And of course, now that I've just finished bk 1, she's started to manage to actually do so.

Maybe it just because she starts out so weak that I have difficulty empathising. Once she finally realises Eremis isn't a good guy, she becomes a more likeable character to me.

Anyway, onto book 2!

--A

[Cameraman Jenn]

Wow, the times I get to correct Av are so few and far between,

On page 75 of "Mirror of Her Dreams" in paperback, "She was familiar with dark, closed spaces. Despite her best efforts to forget them, she remembered every detail of the times her parents had punished her by locking her into a lightless closet. She had learned a great deal about her own unreality during those times. In that closet she had first started feeling herself fade, drifting out of existence into the effacing black."

You have to stop skimming Av. This passage is during Havelock's nighttime visit to Terisa's room the first night, when he takes her to speak with Quillon. The closet issue is a serious part of Terisa's shaping. It's quintessential to understanding her transformation and seeing her need to reach out.

[Cameraman Jenn]

Sorry for the double posting. Av, I may be somewhat defensive of Terisa because I can relate to her on some levels. I was never locked in a closet but I was the girl with coke bottle glasses in second grade and shortest in my school year and mousy as hell for many years and one of the brainy ones so I got ignored... a lot. I also had to deal with my mother's constant criticism and comparison to my sister in which she finds me lacking and still goes on to this day. I got contact lenses, stopped wearing what my grandmother made for me and hit high school and suddenly boys noticed as well as everyone else and I ran with it. I didn't make the best decisions and it's hard to go from being ignored to spotlight in one quick swoop. I dated this guy Matt who trashed my reputation by telling everyone we were having sex when we weren't. He played me. I learned and haven't been played since. I know it sounds like a cliche high school movie but it is sadly true. Also, even though the dedication is to Ross, his son, I know from personal conversation that he wrote it for Perry, his daughter. I don't expect men to be able to relate as much to Terisa but some of his best male characters are in these books in my opinion. Eremis included, also the Tor, Joyse, Havelock, the Castellan and the list goes on...

In the Gap series, Steve puts the people through situations to see what they will do. He does that in his TC series too. In MN he looks into the heart of people and decides what they should do and are capable of and then writes it. It's different and it's why so many love Gap/TC and hate MN. It's the difference between writing something for himself and writing for another. It's part of what makes Steve so brilliant, he can write it from both sides. So many authors can only write it one way.. cough... (Steven King) cough...Just my very opinionated opinion.

[Avatar]

And like I said, I might be less sympathetic because I can't relate. But the issue for me isn't so much whether of not her passivity is justifiable, or at least understandable, it's the believability of her attitude/feelings/reactions. It just feels overdone to me.

But, 100 pages into bk 2, and the past is behind us. Teresa is growing a spine like nobodies business.

--A