Divided

[Cybrweez]

A video about Christian youth ministry. Basically, its doing a poor job training/discipling youth, and isn't Biblical.

I saw this on Monday, after reading the thread in the 'Tank about documentaries, so did keep me a bit more objective I think than otherwise may have been.

Any thoughts? It challenged quite a few assumptions for me.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Obviously I don't have time to watch this at work and I may not even watch it over the weekend.

What I do know is that when our kids get a little older and start going to the youth-centered services, I will from time to time--and without warning--go attend their services so I can see what goes on and what is being taught. If I don't agree with it then they won't attend those services any more. Simple.

[sgt.null]

i watched it. i agree that the family should be the center of religious upkeep. i have no problems when the movie talks about that.

at Mass the kids stay, they aren't sent away. we don't have a youth ministry as defined by protestant means.

but very early on someone talking about a young earth. maybe, just maybe some kids are turned off by anti-science lectures.

maybe some are turned off by people in their church cleaving the Levitican parsing when it comes to gays and marriage but continue to eat pork or shellfish. all the while insisting they are following God's word, while teaching hate.

the biggest reason I believe that kids turn away from the church is Christians who are hypocrites.

"do as I say, not as I do."

[Hashi Lebwohl]

the biggest reason I believe that kids turn away from the church is Christians who are hypocrites.

That is why I left. My mother, a long-time member of her church, got shunned and alienated because how dare she divorce her husband for having a history of affairs behind her back?

After we moved last year, we switched churches because a) we wanted one closer and b) my wife was not feeling that our adult group was not accepting of us, both on our second marriage. I attend the one we are at now but if I run into reasons to leave I will never go back to another one, no matter how much she tries to convince me to go.

[Holsety]

I was raised jewish, had a bar mitzvah, got confirmed. Since the confirmation ceremony I've only been in a temple twice, both for family events. I don't think I will ever reenter a religious community, jewish or otherwise, unless i get divine guidance along some path, or I raise children (which I am as interested in as going to religious services). The reason I would want to raise children under religious auspices is to give them a early formalized, institutionalized introduction to thinking about questions of morality and ethics. I am not sure whether I really think that any religion has the best system, but perhaps they are the most accessible in a community setting for people at a young age. I think that in such a situation, I would actually prefer not to raise children Jewish, since while I'm sure I would learn more about Judaism in the process, it might be more interesting to learn more about another religion.

I kind of found some of the opinions aired by the adults to be kind of irrititating. For example, one of the guys said it was terrible that kids were questioning the intro to genesis, since that showed their lack of faith. But Jesus set aside whole portions of old testament law (as has already been said). If Jesus doesn't think the old testament is perfect, why should his followers? However, I did sort of like the guy who was making the film. He seems genuinely concerned, but also introspective, admitting that even the church may be to blame. I'm sure we differ sharply on a lot of issues, but if you have doubt, then I think your faith is worth more.

[Avatar]

The thing I like about the Judaic tradition is that it is a tradition of questioning, discussing, debating and commentating on what has been said before.

It seems far more open to debate over its meaning, and even when meaning has been largely agreed, those debates remain part of the teaching.

Sorry, haven't watched the vid - no sound at work. It does occur to me though that different groups interpret things in different ways. When you say it isn't biblical do you mean according to how you interpret the bible, or do you mean it is "preaching" things that contradict what it says?

--A

[Linna Heartbooger]

I'm interested... I'm concerned the movie will just irritate me if I watch it.

Those who have watched the video - could you put down what some of the major or especially memorable points it makes are? (and what you think of them)

Basically, I am a gigantic nerd for understanding youth ministry dynamics / strategy on a variety of levels.
I was in the school-of-hard-knocks for "how to be a youth pastor's wife" for 3.5 years. (and LOVED it)

So I want to join the discussion, but I don't want to watch the video. (this is a common theme with me... I never want to watch the videos!)

What I do know is that when our kids get a little older and start going to the youth-centered services, I will from time to time--and without warning--go attend their services so I can see what goes on and what is being taught. If I don't agree with it then they won't attend those services any more.

That willingness to be intentionally involved could be awesome / admirable.

What would be some examples of some teaching that would unacceptably cross the line, for you?

And what do you think you'd do if the teachers seem to be teaching perfectly fine things, but are just boring communicators?
Or just don't know how to handle a classroom?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

What would be some examples of some teaching that would unacceptably cross the line, for you?

And what do you think you'd do if the teachers seem to be teaching perfectly fine things, but are just boring communicators?
Or just don't know how to handle a classroom?

I don't have any examples in mind; I would just be on the lookout for anything that raises a red flag for me.

If their teacher are either boring or don't know how to handle a classroom...well, unfortunately that wouldn't be my problem. I might mention suggestions to the kids to pass along but I wouldn't get more involved unless the instructors were really in over their head. Of course, if they were unprepared to teach a class then they probably wouldn't have volunteered in the first place.

[Ananda]

i watched it. i agree that the family should be the center of religious upkeep. i have no problems when the movie talks about that.

at Mass the kids stay, they aren't sent away. we don't have a youth ministry as defined by protestant means.

but very early on someone talking about a young earth. maybe, just maybe some kids are turned off by anti-science lectures.

maybe some are turned off by people in their church cleaving the Levitican parsing when it comes to gays and marriage but continue to eat pork or shellfish. all the while insisting they are following God's word, while teaching hate.

the biggest reason I believe that kids turn away from the church is Christians who are hypocrites.

"do as I say, not as I do."

I agree those are turn offs, Nullo. But, this sentence, i think you could stop here: "the biggest reason I believe that kids turn away from the church is Christians". We have a secular society, thank god (hihi). I don't think young people who see that our understanding of the universe is so deep on the one hand and so utterly limited on the other want to cleave to ancient writings that claims to answer all questions while themselves being both inaccurate and out of time. I don't think young people are any less spiritual, though. I think they are just less reactive for religion. At least that is the case here. And, I think that is a very good thing.

[Cybrweez]

Linna, the idea is that you don't see any examples in the Bible of dividing children from parents, particularly in church. Instead, its quite clear that parents, specifically fathers, are to disciple their children. The idea of youth ministry, and a youth pastor, has led to parents "outsourcing" that responsibility to them - and the question is what makes them qualified?

And it goes into some history of the sunday school movement, which was originally just education related, not religious, but the church borrowed the idea b/c it became so popular. The factory school system (which is failing in public schools as well) was brought into the church.

[Avatar]

Parents outsource a lot of stuff these days...

--A

[sgt.null]

the video makes a point that Sunday school is based on public schooling. and both are failing.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I don't think young people who see that our understanding of the universe is so deep on the one hand and so utterly limited on the other want to cleave to ancient writings that claims to answer all questions while themselves being both inaccurate and out of time.

Fortunately, the Bible is not a book about science or understanding the universe; rather, it is a book about people, how they should act, and their relationship (or lack thereof) with God.

Being religious doesn't make someone stupid. Only a fool doesn't investigate the world around him and try to figure out how it works. Sure, some religious people are fools...but you can find those in any group of people.

[SoulBiter]

A video about Christian youth ministry. Basically, its doing a poor job training/discipling youth, and isn't Biblical.

I saw this on Monday, after reading the thread in the 'Tank about documentaries, so did keep me a bit more objective I think than otherwise may have been.

Any thoughts? It challenged quite a few assumptions for me.

I haven't watched the video. But I wanted to add that most Churches do a poor job of discipling even with its adults.

[Cybrweez]

the video makes a point that Sunday school is based on public schooling. and both are failing.

Yea, and I agree on both counts. I knew the major influencers of public ed were men who wanted a mass market, but was interesting some of the influence from those who wanted the state to raise children, which goes back to Plato.

[balon!]

I'm gonna watch this one with the GF, but my initial thoughts:

When I was a kid (probly age 9-14) my Mom brought my brother and I to attend three different churches. (International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, LDS and Pentecostal).

I was sent to a youth group by each Church, but they were all structured about the same. The Youth pastor would give a sermon (accompanied by reading passages), there was time for worship in song, with prayer at the beginning and end.

While attending the 4square, I think I honestly believed. But I didn't really understand what I believed, just that Jesus was Lord and things like that. Happy songs and proclaiming things I'd heard repeated to me.

We spent only a brief time in the Latter Day Saints, because my Mom refused to tithe. (We were pretty poor then, and though the church would've taken care of us through food, supplies, clothes, etc... my Mom preferred to just take care of us without giving up her wages). There was social lashback, and a little shunning, and we left.

My time in the Assemblies of God was by far the for most illuminating and interesting. I was becoming old enough to understand the larger concepts that were being taught by my youth pastors, and to start questioning the validity of their arguments. This was only heightened by the entire leadership (Pastor and deacons) being removed from the church for falsely giving prophecies (and letting it happen.) That was my final straw.

At that point I stopped going to church, began writing and figuring out what I thought about religion and nature of existence, and here I am.