1984 and Brave New World

[peter]

I think I have read somewhere that the world of today, while not well captured by either of the above books individually, is uncannily close to a sort of amalgum of both books taken together.

After an abortive attempt to locate a copy of Melvilles 'Moby Dick' in my local library (the one copy available to service the needs of a third of a million people in SW England had been stolen or something) but spotting three copies of David and Victoria Beckham's biography available, I decided only from now on to read classics of the past or educational/historical works (exept while on holiday). As a good start I think a reading of the above two novels back to back would be a worthwhile exercise, with a view to establishing to what extent the above idea 'has legs'. It would be more fun if I had a bit of company doing this so if anyone is interested perhaps you could post to that effect. It's a big ask so I won't be dissapointed if no-one is up for it, but if they are it might be fun.

[sgt.null]

can't you buy books off of e-bay or something?

[ussusimiel]

I've read both books, but I don't have them to hand to join you in a reread. I've read 1984 a number of times so I am fairly familiar with it. The film with Richard Burton and John Hurt is quite good as well. I read Brave New World years ago. I may have reread it as well, but that was also years ago, so I don't remember any of the details or names just the general gist.

There are a number of people on the Watch who have read both so you might get a few people chipping in.

u.

[Avatar]

I've read them both, and I have them both. My copy of BNW has a very interesting "apology" from Huxley in it, IIRC, that I'd never seen before.

Will dig them out if I can find them...(I know where 1984 is...the other one, not so sure. )

So let's start with 1984. I reckon I can start by Monday latest if you want.

--A

[peter]

Thanks for the replys Guys.

Two reasons Sarge - i) I've already paid (via taxes) for these books to be available. Surely it's not too much to ask for a little bit of quality material to float in amongst the pap. ii) I'm mean (actually short of money as a result of saving for my hols). Also more seriously I do try to support the library on the basis of 'use it or loose it' and even if people choose to read trash, it is their choice and I live in hope that one day they realise that 'Dickens is better than Dallas. Better that they read anything than not read at all which is becoming a real risk these days with UK young 'un's at least.

Avatar and Ussusimiel - Too much! Avatar, 1984 sounds good to me. I'm working until Tuesday so it's unlikely I can secure a copy before then but will do so on this day (by hook or by crook) and then kick off the read on Tuesday night. I'll post to say I'm up and running. Ussusimiel - it would be great to hear your observations as we progress. Boy my library better be 'on game' for this one!

[sgt.null]

libraries unfortunately reflect us as a culture. at ours the computers are more popular than the books.

[Avatar]

Avatar and Ussusimiel - Too much! Avatar, 1984 sounds good to me. I'm working until Tuesday so it's unlikely I can secure a copy before then but will do so on this day (by hook or by crook) and then kick off the read on Tuesday night. I'll post to say I'm up and running. Ussusimiel - it would be great to hear your observations as we progress. Boy my library better be 'on game' for this one!

Sounds good to me.

Uh, so, you've never read either of them? This should be fun.

--A

[peter]

No. The Only Orwell I ever read was 'Animal Farm' at school some 40+ years ago. I am in two minds as to whether to do a little background research on Orwell or not. I know Animal Farm was an allegory of communism (the USSR I guess) and I'm guessing 1984 could be as well. Does one read it with this in mind though, or just take it at face value and see where it goes? It might just be best to take the 'clean slate' approach and do the latter, but maybe in so doing I'll miss out on things that would otherwise be meaningful. Hmmm....any advice Av?

How long is it since you have read either book and when you did so, did you read them close enough together for the one to still resonate with the other (if they do so at all).

[Vraith]

No. The Only Orwell I ever read was 'Animal Farm' at school some 40+ years ago. I am in two minds as to whether to do a little background research on Orwell or not. I know Animal Farm was an allegory of communism (the USSR I guess) and I'm guessing 1984 could be as well.

1984 is not allegorical like AFarm. Much more in the logical projection from the real world mode. I'd say avoid the research until after...cuz most of the commentary/crit I've seen of it, while not wrong or inaccurate, tends to conceal/skip over the art/lit in the writing...which I think is quite good [though Brave is better in that way, for my money].

If I have my copies at this house, I might join y'all.

[ussusimiel]

I'm with Vraith on not doing any research on Orwell. If you've read Animal Farm (even if it was years ago) that's more than enough. 1984 is just a really good book, it needs no outside criticism to be understood.

I disagree with Vraith (and feel all the happier for it ) about Brave New World being a better written book, simply because I never felt drawn back to reread it like 1984. It purely subjective though, so after you have read them both you can can set us straight

u.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

1984 is available as a free download online, and it's a relatively brief book. www.planetebook.com/1984.asp

Same with Brave New World: www.idph.com.br/conteudos/ebooks/BraveNewWorld.pdf

Regarding the significance of 1984 as political commentary / prophecy, it would be well to keep the in mind that the regime of 1984 has numerous cosmic and Satanic aspects:

www.netcharles.com/orwell/ctc/docs/hell1984.htm

That in Nineteen Eighty-Four the regime is in some sense Satanic has, of course, been widely perceived. O'Brien has been compared to Mephistopheles the celebrant in his flat of a kind of Black Mass with wine, wafer and ritual. However, such parallels are clearly regarded as metaphorical. Alone among the interpreters of Nineteen Eighty-Four, the millennial fundamentalists have realised that actual demonic powers are involved.(17) For them Nineteen Eighty-Four is a depiction of the reign of Antichrist foretold in the First and Second Epistle of Peter and in Revelation, 13.

I think 1984 is more properly understood as a re-imagined Hell in contemporary terms rather than a political critique.

[Vraith]

I think 1984 is more properly understood as a re-imagined Hell in contemporary terms rather than a political critique.

I can see that working IF one subscribes to a non-magical/Man-centered variation akin to "Hell is other people." If you mean actually religion-directed, like Milton, or even Tolkien...it would take a lot to persuade me [that link won't do it...the writer is really stretching and bending...but if I join this re-reading I'll keep it in mind]
It's worth noting, I think, that ANY work that opposes ordinary life/folks with an Ideology or Metaphysics can probably be interpreted in a religious framework.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Vraith, naturally there are going to be different opinions about damn near anything, but I do not think it is arguable that the regime has insight into Winston's mind that transcends what can normally be surmised or intuited, thus implying supernatural powers. This makes the regime qualitatively different than any conceivable real-world regime.

[peter]

I'm certainly going to take the advice as doing the read with no background research beforehand and thus try to let the work 'speak for itself' in the first instance. One problem is that the work comes with so much 'previous form' to an older person (1984 - Ohh! Shiver) that it's almost impossible to approach it without some preconception that will colour ones experience. Hopefully the literature will soon wipe this away (I'm sure it will). BNW does not have this 'ideological baggage' (is that how you express it) attached to it in anything like the same way and in this sense should be a much 'cleaner' read in the first instance.

Vraith - awesome if you can do it! If not possible then please be on hand to correct my howlers which will come thick and fast no doubt once I begin to read

Thanks Ron for the downloads. On the basis of what I said above I'm going to 'save' the third link untill later and see how it works with what has come out of an (as far as possible) open minded read. (Badly put but I hope you understand what I mean.)

[Orlion]

1984 has been far more politicized than Brave New World. Whenever something happens politically that one does not like, the talking heads will say things like, 'It's like 1984! Watch out for Big Brother!' etc. etc. For the most part, it's completely uncalled for, and you will find that these talking heads have never read 1984.

As far as these works being 'prophetic', I am naturally skeptical. I do not call using your own observations on human nature being 'prophetic', and that all that Huxley and Orwell did was observe the human condition in certain conditions and then extended them to extreme scenarios. Whenever we see things that are 'similar', it's because it has happened before and will happen again. Huxley and Orwell realized this and used it to their advantage.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

An even better novel for this topic, one which Orwell used as inspiration, would be Koestler's Darkness at Noon.

[Avatar]

Thanks for the link, will be handy if I can't find my BNW.

Yes, just read them. No research.

Personally, 1984 reads as a horror for me. BNW more like dystopian sci-fi.

Been...at least 10 years since I read them probably. But I've read 1984 more times than BNW, so it has an advantage in the "standing out" stakes.

--A

[I'm Murrin]

1984 was Orwell's criticism of the direction he saw British socialist parties heading post-world war 2. He'd made a lot of the points in non-fiction essays prior to writing the book; the progression from socialism to totalitarianism, as was seen in the Nazi party, was something he saw as a possibility in England and other places.

[peter]

Have got my BNW copy secured (the library has managed to get onr for me which I will collect on Tuesday). Also with Ron's download of 1984 (and the chance of picking up a book or borrowing a Kindle today) I'm pretty 'good to go'.

What is the 'form' for doing this Av (and possibly Vraith). I read 2+ hours a day but not massively fast by some peoples standards. Do we comment just as it takes us or in a more 'formal' manner - say at the end of every three or for chapters. (I'm a 'greenhorn' at doing anything like a group read and so am in the dark as to how it goes )

[Vraith]

Have got my BNW copy secured (the library has managed to get onr for me which I will collect on Tuesday). Also with Ron's download of 1984 (and the chance of picking up a book or borrowing a Kindle today) I'm pretty 'good to go'.

What is the 'form' for doing this Av (and possibly Vraith). I read 2+ hours a day but not massively fast by some peoples standards. Do we comment just as it takes us or in a more 'formal' manner - say at the end of every three or for chapters. (I'm a 'greenhorn' at doing anything like a group read and so am in the dark as to how it goes )

Well...it's your idea and thread, so can do it however you like. The dissections we do by chapter, then give others time to comment then move on, new thread for new chapter...but this is different, cuz your intention is to compare the two at some point...I mean, are you going to read one all the way through, then the next? or Ch1 of 84 compare ch1 BNW? then move? it's really up to you, though.