Questions Arising.

[peter]

At the end of TIW [got to be my favorite book of the whole series] in my re-read, questions keep popping up that, while they probably don't require whole 'threads' to answer, are just niggly enough for me to want you guys opinions as to the answer. Thus I have started this thread so I can stick them in, and anyone who has an observation on the subject can make it. If anyone feels a particular question cannot be adressed within the confines of a 'general questions' thread - or indeed mods, if you would prefer me to post questions in single threads then let me know [or indeed start a thread on the topic in question].

Anyway - here we go. I've got 3 questions for starters.

1) I'm reading early publications of the first series and for some reason 'the Lurker' does not feature in the glossary [why I've no idea]. In The Illearth War prior to Lord Shetras fall, the mission are forced into a retreat where they have to go back to the margin of the Sarangrave to build a raft/rafts with which to navigate the Defiles Course. Question - Am I right in thinking that The Lurker makes it's home in Lifeswallower or does it's abode encompass The Sarangrave more generally. I believe Lord Shetras fall occurs prior to the entry to Lifeswallower, so clearly the Lurker can opperate outside this area, but is the Sarangrave part of its demesne.

2) Do you think the Bloodguard with Mhoram and Troy on Kevins Watch [in fact the Bloodguard generally] would have already been aware of the content of Tull's tale [ie the killing of the Unhomed] prior to his recitation on the Watch. They gave no indication of being so other than Terrel's implacability in the face of Tull's 'breaking down' prior to the telling [he strikes Tull across the face]. If they were not already aware of the Giants demise, why had not the haruchai 'mindspeak' conveyed it to them; if they were aware, why had they concealed the knowledge.

3) In the above recitation Tull makes two [or even three] observations that the Giants did not resist their own destruction by Kinslaughterer because 'we have become the thing we hate'. What is the meaning of this statement; in what way have they done this? Only by their despair and refusal to resist - by their abandonment of hope in their final hour, did they indeed become 'the thing they hate'; their was no evidence of such a state of affairs in their hopefull embassy to the Lords in LFB. [The theft of the triplets from Coercri is not enough to explain this IMHO - the loss of hope that stemmed from it may be.] What is this 'thing they hate' which it is that they have become?

[Cord Hurn]

On question 1, Peter, I think the lurker can roam throughout the entire Sarangrave and all through the Defiles Course, but its power is strongest (perhaps because it has more manueverability) in the Great Swamp.

On question 2, I think the Haruchai mind speech has range limits, so that Terrel and Ruel (Troy's bodyguard) don't know what is on Tull's mind until he has almost completed his ascent up the Watch. (Just a guess.)

On question 3, I refer you to a thread further down on this page entitled "Was saving the Giants possible?".
Both wayfriend and SoulBiter seem to think it was hopeless to rouse the Giants to resistance, but I'm not entirely convinced of that. After all, Foamfollower in TPTP Chapter 17 feels guilt over not giving battle to Kinslaughterer, so there must have been SOME hope, mustn't there? Saltheart Foamfollower knows his people better than anybody, I'd think.

[Avatar]

The mind speech definitely has limits (we learn later) (I didn't figure out the could speak mind to mind until the 2nd Chrons when we actually get told). I would think it less than the height of the Watch though...which was...uh...I wanna say 4,000 feet?

3)They were mastered by Ravers. Something always believed utterly impossible.

--A

[Cord Hurn]

On question 3, I refer you to a thread further down on this page entitled "Was saving the Giants possible?".

I meant, this forum's page, not this thread's page...

the height of the Watch though...which was...uh...I wanna say 4,000 feet?

I believe that's exactly right.

[wayfriend]

1) The Lurker wasn't a fully developed "character" in the first Chronicles. It was just a tentacle, really. So probably no thought went into where the Lurker could go. Otherwise, what Cord Hurn said.

2) The mind speech of the Haruchai - again - wasn't fully developed as a concept in the first Chronicles. So probably there's no reason to assume that the story was shared mentally before it was shared verbally. But by Second Chronicles rules, I suppose it would have, as they drew near to Tull.

3) "They became the thing that they hate" refers to the three Giant's possessed by Ravers. Not just because their fidelity was corrupted and they served Foul. But also because the three were the fertility symbol of their new hope for Home. But, mostly, and most importantly, because the traits that they most identified with being themselves - being large of stature and of spirit - became Lord Foul's most potent weapon. What they loved about themselves became the Land's worst affliction. This is why they elected to die. Not because some of their individuals became tools of Foul, but because their very essence did. This is my interpretation anyway.

[Vraith]

1) The Lurker wasn't a fully developed "character" in the first Chronicles. It was just a tentacle, really. So probably no thought went into where the Lurker could go. Otherwise, what Cord Hurn said.

Well, it definitely wasn't fleshed out to what it became...but
Am I mismemberting? [wouldn't be the first time] I thought that pretty early on it was said that the Flat's area was "hazardous," but not "evil," but the Swamp/Lurker was otherwise...they expected to be able to avoid it?

[Cord Hurn]

I thought that pretty early on it was said that the Flat's area was "hazardous," but not "evil," but the Swamp/Lurker was otherwise...they expected to be able to avoid it?

I remember that they sought to pass through the Sarangrave undetected, as unnoticed as possible by the lurker.

This plan failed because the lurker first detected the Eathpower associated with the Ranyhyn, then detected the Earthpower associated with the Vow of the Bloodguard after the Ranyhyn had been dismissed.

At that latter point, they were already a number of leagues down the Defiles Course, and Korik elected to continue on, because the Vow was not something that could be concealed or denied, and they would lose too much time by turning back and going around the Sarangrave.

[peter]

One point - the Lurker was only 'recently awakened' at the time of TIW, so we may assume that conditions re travel through the area which had prevailed for long ages prior to the Mission, were no longer as they had previousely been.

re Q.3 - yes absolutely the Ravers getting the triplets; but then there's this weird comment when Koric asks the one Giant found alive in the base of Coercri why they did not flee. He answers, "Some did - some four or five who did not know the long name of despair - or they did not hear it. Or they were to much like him [Kinslaughterer] to judge [my italics]. The ill of the Sarangrave took them - they are no more." Does this not imply some deeper ill affecting the giants?

[SleeplessOne]

One point - the Lurker was only 'recently awakened' at the time of TIW, so we may assume that conditions re travel through the area which had prevailed for long ages prior to the Mission, were no longer as they had previousely been.

re Q.3 - yes absolutely the Ravers getting the triplets; but then there's this weird comment when Koric asks the one Giant found alive in the base of Coercri why they did not flee. He answers, "Some did - some four or five who did not know the long name of despair - or they did not hear it. Or they were to much like him [Kinslaughterer] to judge [my italics]. The ill of the Sarangrave took them - they are no more." Does this not imply some deeper ill affecting the giants?

I always thought that Sparlimb Keelsetter's comment concerning 'some' of the 4-5 Giants to have escaped being 'too much like him' (Kingslaughterer) was a clever bit of foreshadowing, implying that Foamfollower (who by this stage of the story had succumbed to a form of blood-lust for his enemies) was still alive ..

[peter]

Yes SleeplessOne - there was something of this slowly 'gelling' in my mind. I also had thought back to FF's killing spree after Soaring Woodhelven.

[wayfriend]

1) The Lurker wasn't a fully developed "character" in the first Chronicles. It was just a tentacle, really. So probably no thought went into where the Lurker could go. Otherwise, what Cord Hurn said.

Well, it definitely wasn't fleshed out to what it became...but
Am I mismemberting? [wouldn't be the first time] I thought that pretty early on it was said that the Flat's area was "hazardous," but not "evil," but the Swamp/Lurker was otherwise...they expected to be able to avoid it?

Examining the text, the lurker wasn't even given the name "the lurker" until after it had slain Shetra.

Until then, there was only a hint of a slumbering evil, of old wrongs awakened. And this was only recently: the Sarangrave had always been dangerous but "not naturally evil". The slumbering evil was [then] new.

I don't think anyone had any specific knowledge of a tentacular beastie until it reached out and tweaked their noses.

[peter]

When Troy leads the Warward into Dooms Retreat, initially he intends to use the site as the place from which to fight Fouls army. However the sheer scale of the army demands [after his moment of panic on the Watch] a rethink in which he hatches the 'abominable' idea of trying to bargain for passage through Garroting Deep. Looking at the map, how then does the army pass through Doriendor Korishev [to the south] - a significant detour from the 'direct route' which is a straight south-westerly trek from the Retreat to Cravenhaw. Is this a [minor] 'continuity breakdown' between the text and the drawer of the map, or is there a deliberate reason for Troy's [apparent] detour that I have missed?

[wayfriend]

Troy provides us with his reasons.

"I have two main reasons. First, we're going to give the rest of the warriors a chance to put some distance between them and Fleshharrower. Second, we're going to help squeeze out a victory in this war. I'm preparing a little surprise for Foul's army, and we're going to help make it work. Parts of that army move faster than others, but if they get too spread out, they won't all fall into my trap. So we're going to pull them together here.

"But there's one more thing. Fleshharrower may be planning a surprise or two for us. Many of you were with Hiltmark Quaan during that storm - you know what I'm talking about. That Giant has power, and he intends to use it. We're going to give him a chance. We're going to be a target, so that whatever he does will hit us instead of the rest of the Warward. I think we can survive it-if we do things right. But it's not going to be easy."

So, a longer path, but one with a greater chance of ultimate success.

[peter]

Yes Wayfriend - I do get that the need to concentrate FleshHarrowers army so that it would run into the Deep as a single body demanded constant and repeated holding back of the faster moving front ranks of the army - but I'm not convinced that SRD ever intended the route through Doriendor Corishev as a major detour from the route from The Retreat to the Deep. The questions such a plan would have demanded would have been very different.

Quaan would have been aghast. "What! Treble the length of the march when the army are dying on their feet as it is! Why not use the same tactic to hold them at the Retreat, but march the Army straight to the Deep and reduce the length of the march by two thirds. Will not such additional length result in FleshHarrower's army becoming the more strung out, thus negating the advantage you gain at the Retreat in this respect?"

There is also one more thing that implies this may have been a mistake on the part of the map drawer; some pages earlier than the quotes above, when first Troy tells Quaan and the Lords that they will not be staying in the Retreat, Quaan asks "Warmark, where will we march?" and Troy replies "West for now". Later when Amorine tries to step down as First-Haft, Tror responds "We won't have to march any faster than this. We're just going to turn South a fraction more [my italics] so that we'll reach that old ruined city - "Doriendor Corishev". I take this to imply that the maps representation of DC as being as far South as it is shown is an exageration and that in reality SRD envisioned it as much closer to the straight line drawn between Dooms Retreat anf the southern tip of Garroting Deep.

[Sorry for my excessive punctilliousness WF - I love talking about The Chrons is all ]

[wayfriend]

Text aside, my impression has always been that Doriendor was a ruse to make Fleshharrower stop. He could not gamble that the Lords did not invest the city; he had to stop and scour it clean. While the Eoward marched on.

The Eoward was exhausted. They needed the extra time.

I also don't think Doriendor Corishev was that far out of the way. The newer, colorized version of the map that you can find on-line is, I believe, a bit different than the original map.

[peter]

Wayfriend; my apologies. It appears the map in my 'omnibus edition' of 1995 is considerably inferior to Lynn K Plagge's original, where Doriendor Corishev is indeed much closer to the 'straight line' I mention above. Kanen Wynn Fonstad expands the area in her 'Atlas of the Land' in a manner that is much more consistant with the text. That'll teach me - I never did like the map in this edition!

[wayfriend]

That'll teach me - I never did like the map in this edition!

The original is the best. I don't know why they needed a re-do.
I forgot to check the original map last night ... glad you did.

[peter]

In my re-reading of TPWP I'm finding it hard to reconcile the POV issues that have been raised in aother places [and by SRD himself] with what I read in the book. In the thread about the [putative] confrontation between Kevin and Foul [a couple of threads away] the issue of 'the scene could not be done' was raised, not least because it would contravene the connection that all pov charachters must be related at least tenuously to Covenants 'real world' in order to maintain the 'is it real/is it not real' paradox. Donaldson in his intro to 'Gilden Fire' made much of this very point in his explanation as to why the chapter was 'chopped'. Yet in the PTP we have whole swathes dedicated to Mhoram as pov charachter and Triock aslo is given a go. Had SRD by this point decided that 'the paradox' was no longer of import given Covenants decision to confront Foul eitherways, and this is reflected in the dropping of the pov restriction?

[wayfriend]

The POV issue was always more about not bringing in too much too soon rather than avoiding it altogether, I feel. It seems that Donaldson didn't like things happening earlier which he was fine with happening later on. I assume because he felt the edifice he was building was stronger as the story went on.

When it's become established that Covenant cares for the Land, it's okay to have Mhoram act independently. However, earlier on, it would break the balance of Covenant not knowing if he should care about the Land or refuse to believe in it. If the reader believes too much, we could not appreciate Covenant's quandry.

[peter]

Yes - that figures.