The Organisation of Matter

[peter]

To the hard headed rationalist life is merely an unusual by-product of a particular arrangement of matter, and sentience just a further (even more) unusual by-product of life. At no point is anything other added to the 'matter' to result in this, unless we consider the electromagnetic properties of the universe to be non-material, in which case we can still see life and sentience as unusual by-products of the highly specifically ordered combination of the two.

Ok. Is it not thus possible that life and it's immaculately conceived child sentience are but one path that highly specifically ordered matter and electromagnetic forces might take. Is it possible that there are others, equally inconceivable to us, were we not able to see our own hand in front of our face, as life would be?

I'd like to think so.

[Avatar]

What senses do we lack that we cannot see and cannot hear another world all around us?

This is one of those impossible questions.

--A

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

Don't knock electromagnetism lol

Srsly tho, don't

Electricity's got some hella weird properties, or so my amateur knowledge of the topic indicates. Like, electrician-work is apparently the only known field in which imaginary numbers are applied to concrete life or something (or so my very faint recollection of college algebra textbook goes...).

OTOH though (or then!), "materialism" as in "every thing is made up of bits of solid stuff" seems hardly true at all.

As for unknown senses, hmm, there's actually a TED talk about this... Wish I could remember the title but the focus is on a vest that allows deaf people to hear. Like, literally, apparently. The general idea seems to be that all the brain needs to gain a new sense is the appropriate external attachments. So if we came up with an attachment for, IDK, dark "matter," we'd get a whole new slew of sensations, i.e. a range of perceptions as special and differentiated as colors and sounds (and not just an addition to the range of colors and sounds).

[Zarathustra]

Modes of perception are just different way the body picks up and interprets different forms of energy. Light. Sounds waves. Heat. Electromagnetic repulsion in objects that come in contact with the electrons in our own skin.

I don't think the possibilities are unimaginable. For every form of energy, there could be a conceivable form of sense perception. We are already opening up previously imperceptible world with reason, by forming tools that detect these energies and render them visible or audible, etc.

[Vraith]

I don't think the possibilities are unimaginable. For every form of energy, there could be a conceivable form of sense perception. We are already opening up previously imperceptible world with reason, by forming tools that detect these energies and render them visible or audible, etc.

That.
And, while currently we "translate" other forms [or the forms we already sense, but are beyond our natural abilities, like higher and lower light wavelengths] to make them perceptible, it is almost certainly possible that we can---and if we can, we will---engineer our brains, genetically or mechanically, for new kinds of perception, new experiential qualia.

[peter]

Yuval Noah Harare's follow up to Sapiens, Homo Deus is out this month and investigates this very topic, the apotheosis of man .......

But I'm thinking something entirely different here - a dance of matter and emf that is entirely different, not sensory, not sentient, not 'life' - but a truly different emergent pathway that leads to equally wondrous end points (and who knows where the potential future path of life could lie - hell, who first seeing a bacteria could have predicted the creative and destructive powers that sentient humans would someday yield and life's story is not over yet).

Clearly we can't know what form or paths other such organisational structures/combinations might take - but having seen it done once in one way, can we then infer that the possibility at least exists that other equally astounding pathways with their own emergent properties could be out there?

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

Well, I've wondered for some time now whether galaxy clusters, say, might have weird "emergent" properties over and above the interior motions of their planets/stars/etc. If any sufficiently... interesting?... configuration of matter gives rise to novelty, then what do organizations of organizations of organizations give rise to? (Imagine whether the acceleration apparently afflicting the expansion of the universe, might be an effect of some energy field generated not purely from galactic weight but a galactic force operative in clusters of certain kinds?)

[Zarathustra]

It's an interesting question, Vraith. We see matter organize to produce atomic properties, molecular properties, cellular properties, and finally holistic properties of groups of cells, i.e. "life" and "sentience." Is there a side branch somewhere in that progression that gets equally complex and yet different? I don't know. I can't really imagine the possibilities that direction (though that's merely a limit of my imagination). If it's not life and not sentience, then it would seem to be limited to a new form of physical body, like we invent new tools all the time. I can't imagine (my fault, again) another path; there seem to be only material arrangements or arrangements that partake of immaterial patterns (e.g. reason, emotion, thought, meaning).

I think the more interesting or perhaps more fruitful line of question is in how will our organization principle keep organizing us in the future? A global society is already taking shape, and we're linking our minds through communication. I don't think we'll ever be like the Borg, but something like that, with more room for individuality. We will continue to introduce novelty into the universe, the next level of organization.

[Avatar]

I'm thinking more along the lines of "what spectra exist that we're ignorant of?"

If each spectrum offers a different way of perceiving the world that, before our discovery thereof we didn't realise (EM, IR, UV, etc.) there are probably others that could change our perception at some future date.

--A

[peter]

Is there not just one spectrum Av - the electro magnetic - of which we are only able to see a very small segment? Are you thinking that there could yet be others, perhaps more subtle in effect (or perhaps folded deep within the 7 hidden dimensions of string theory {not sofar-fetched an idea as it sounds; some theorists propose just such an idea to account for the relative weakness of the gravitational force})?

[Vraith]

Is there not just one spectrum Av - the electro magnetic - of which we are only able to see a very small segment? Are you thinking that there could yet be others, perhaps more subtle in effect (or perhaps folded deep within the 7 hidden dimensions of string theory {not sofar-fetched an idea as it sounds; some theorists propose just such an idea to account for the relative weakness of the gravitational force})?

Hmmm...several different levels or families here to play with.
Apparently there are people...women only, I think...that have a 4th cone so can see colors contained within the normal spectrum that most of us can't. [theoretically, we can see a million, they could see 99 million more.]
Also, a fair number of species can see into the ultraviolet.
I've heard that our cones are actually sensitive into the near ultraviolet, but we don't see it because the lens or cornea or something prevents those wavelengths from reaching the retina. [[and there is some condition that lets some people see near-ultraviolet]]
What do those things look like? More importantly, does just seeing them affect how they think, engage and act in the world?

And how about a being scaled and structured to directly perceive gravitational waves? How would the universe "look" [or "smell" or however one wants to analogize it] to that being? It seems to me that such a being would be seriously strange to us---because it would have to exist/evolve in a truly bizarre environment for the sense to be useful/advantageous.
Beings that could directly perceive strong/weak nuclear forces would be at least as odd.

And what if there ARE fundamental unknown forces?

To a previous thing you said---I think life/sentience of whatever is emergent is essential to be truly breathtaking. If it didn't have something similar/parallel to life, it might be amazing TO US...for aesthetic, knowledge-enhancing, or whatever reasons. Still, it would just be an object or process, no matter how fascinating.
BUT---if alive/sentient? Even if it is emergent from the same process as we are, but far more so if alive/sentient from a different base? THAT's...it's...well, there isn't a word I think sufficient to describe the value/magnitude/meaningfulness.

[Avatar]

(or perhaps folded deep within the 7 hidden dimensions of string theory)

IIRC, they're up to 11 dimensions in M-Theory now, which is, afaik, replacing (or expanding) string theory.

--A

[peter]

Further ridiculous questions spring to mind, like could our four dimensions be rolled up and hidden within the unrolled (to them at least) dimensions of the seven that are hidden from us; ie alternative realities for whom it is we who are the hidden dimensions of m-theory (I assume the 11 of m-theory compromise of our four plus 7 hidden). Could we share dimensions allowing for a larger number of possible 4 dimensional realities., or would it have to be two four dimensional ones and an odd 3-d affair.

And why were the specific wavelengths of the spectrum that were selected to be the ones visible to us chosen by evolution to be so? There is no qualitative difference between em waves anywhere along the spectrum other than their length: why choose 390 - 700 nm to be the range and not say 1190 - 1500. Is there perhaps more of this range of wavelengths bouncing about to make use of than the others?

[Zarathustra]

This is just a guess, but the wavelengths we see are very close to the ones used by plants for photosynthesis, I believe. Plants don't use green--that's why they look green, because they reflect rather than absorb it. They use both ends of the visible spectrum, blue and red. So since plants were our first form of food (before we evolved to be meat eaters), maybe we evolved to see the wavelengths used by plants in order to detect healthy plants to eat. There are lots of exceptions, but for many plants lack of healthy green indicates some nutrient deficiency.

[Vraith]

This is just a guess, but the wavelengths we see are very close to the ones used by plants for photosynthesis, I believe. Plants don't use green--that's why they look green, because they reflect rather than absorb it. They use both ends of the visible spectrum, blue and red. So since plants were our first form of food (before we evolved to be meat eaters), maybe we evolved to see the wavelengths used by plants in order to detect healthy plants to eat. There are lots of exceptions, but for many plants lack of healthy green indicates some nutrient deficiency.

Huh...that's an interesting thought.
It's generally true that strong/vivid color is related to nutritional value.
Even more than the leaf/color connection is the fruit/veggie color connection...
Perhaps some support from other direction, too---I'm pretty sure that most meat-eaters, especially the hunting ones, see less color but more motion, contrast, and low-light. [[I think meat scavengers use more smell, less sight, generally]]
Exceptions there, too, but generally so I think.
Surely not the entire explanation---but I'd bet it's a factor.

[Avatar]

Makes sense to me. Well reasoned Z.

--A

[peter]

Evolution by natural selection is nothing if not economic: I'm guessing rods and cones work by exitation of electrons up to higher level level orbits (in the color sensitive pigment molecules they I believe contain). Presumably this only occurs over a limited range of wavelength for a given pigment so on the economic idea it makes sense to limit the number of different types of pigment or cells that have to be produced to the smallest number from switch a usefully broad range of distinctive gradations can be produced.

This would to a degree account for the relative narrowness of the visible spectrum - but not it's positioning, for which Z's and V's ideas have more relevance. But saying the sensory apparatus we have had in fact been attuned to a range of wavelengths way up or down the scale somewhere, there is no reason why the same qualia could not have been equally well employed there as where it is, is there?

[Vraith]

I think so, peter.
We already know that qualia, whatever they actually are and however they actually work, are fluid/flexible/translatable/layerable. Look at synesthesia in all its extremely fascinating variations.
In a very real way, qualia are independent of the physical nature of the stimulus, several steps removed, transformed, and highly processed.

Tangentially related---I just saw a blurb within the past week or so.
Apparently people who are blind [] recruit/reassign parts of the vision-processing brain matter and use it when doing math. Kinda reminded me of a certain SRD character.