Star Wars: Obi Wan didn't have to be a liar

[aTOMiC]

Okay. Most anyone reading something in this forum is probably well acquainted with Star Wars and how the original trilogy played out.

One of my pet peeves of the relationship of Luke and Anakin Skywalker comes in the form of the talk Luke has with Obi Wan after meeting him for the first time. Obi Wan explains that he knew Luke's father and that Anakin was killed by a young pupil that Obi Wan was training. At this point Anakin and Darth Vader are referred to as two separate characters which at this point in the story presents no problems.

So when Darth Vader later reveals that he is Luke's father, Anakin Skywalker, we are presented with a serious issue that cannot be explained unless you come to the conclusion that Obi Wan Kenobi is a liar. Obviously Lucas intended for Anakin and Darth Vader to be two different characters at the beginning but decided it would be very cool and super dramatic if the trilogy's chief villain turned out to be the protagonist's own father.

How awesome! Great idea. Oh wait!

Lucas had already established the aforementioned separate characters via a clear and easily understood explanation by Obi Wan in the first film. So how do you get around this giant boulder of an obstacle?

In Return of the Jedi Lucas tried to side step this conundrum in the most clumsy way possible by having Obi Wan explain to Luke that there are differing points of view in the world and he'd better get used to it. He, Obi Wan, wasn't lying earlier when he told Luke his father was betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader per se he was just coloring this version of the truth with his personal point of view.

Unfortunately this is a giant pile of bull crap.
It doesn't work very well and nearly everyone feels uncomfortable with it for the most part. Hey, we still watched Return of the Jedi and all three prequel films so it wasn't exactly a total show stopper but it was a flagrant and avoidable error.

So what should Lucas have done? The Darth Vader/Anakin reveal is just too juicy to give up. There must have been some way to make it all work and make a modicum of narrative sense without turning a noble and beloved character, Obi Wan Kenobi, into a self serving liar.

Here's what occurred to me one day while I was watching Revenge of the Sith. Imagine the following scenario:

Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker are best of friends and are closer to the same age. Anakin is say 23 while Obi Wan is 28. They are both fully trained Jedi Knights and frequently work as partners doing the good work of the Jedi Council. Qui Gon Jinn is an older, more seasoned Jedi around 40. Yoda has trained both Anakin and Obi-wan (which is the way it was explained in Empire eliminating the second big lie of Obi-Wan during the prequels that Qui Gon was his master when he had already told Luke, as a force ghost, that Yoda had trained him).

What Obi Wan, Yoda, Qui Gon and the rest of the Jedi council don't know is that Palpatine has been slowly corrupting Anakin for a long time. Anakin doesn't turn practically overnight as was depicted in the prequels and he sure as hell doesn't turn because he's afraid of losing Padme. They don't marry but they've definitely been intimate together enough times for her to be pregnant.

Anakin suffers from a form of schizophrenia fed by the dark side of the force and with Palpatine's guidance develops two separate personalities. Palpatine shields the Jedi from this knowledge as it works perfectly with his plans.

Palpatine instructs Anakin to disguise himself while he operates as Darth Vader, even wearing full head gear and speaking with a voice synthesizer. Obi Wan is tricked into training Darth Vader by Palpatine explaining that the young Vader was in an accident that left him disfigured. Anakin plays the role of Darth Vader convincingly, creating a sympathetic character that Obi Wan accepts and the ruse is complete.

At some point during a mission Obi Wan and the Council are told that Darth Vader has killed Anakin and escaped thus freeing both Anakin and Darth Vader from the Jedi. Only Palpatine knows the truth and as a powerful Sith Lord he has complete control over the situation and is free to move forward with his schemes with Darth Vader as his pawn.

Now lets stop a second and think about this. When Darth Vader ultimately reveals that he is Luke's father the whole galaxy is in shock, not just Luke. Imagine the impact of this.

It is a huge missed opportunity that while creating drama that ascends off the charts it also completely acquits Obi Wan of any deception on his part. His honor is never taken away to serve as a clumsy filler for a gaping plot hole.

I don't pretend that the scenario I described doesn't have problems but I personally would have found it all to be much more satisfying. Consider other events that would have been altered. Imagine the scene where Anakin murders the young Jedi padawans. Suppose Darth Vader is seen on the security tapes. At this point no one knows why Vader killed Anakin and he may have still engendered some sympathy, especially from Obi-Wan. The scene wouldn't have been quite as heart wrenching as Obi-Wan watching Anakin kill children but it would have still held plenty of emotional weight and the audience knows its really Anakin. Then Obi-Wan's battle on Mustafar is even cooler since we see him battling Darth Vader nearly to the death instead Anakin who frankly never attained a fraction of the gravitas of his alter ego.

None of it matters now as the Star Wars saga has long since been etched in stone which is a bit of a shame IMHO.

[wayfriend]

I never saw it as a lie. I never saw it as a "point of view". I saw it as Ben being respectful both to Luke's aunt and uncle, who didn't want Luke growing up with that kind of weight, as well as to Luke's innocence, who having lived with his aunt and uncle wasn't prepared for that kind of shock. Ben astutely felt that Luke wasn't ready for that. Luke didn't even know who Darth Vader was at that time.

He did reveal that Luke's father was a Jedi. Which can, in the new light, be considered as starting to prepare Luke for the reality of his family.

[aTOMiC]

I never saw it as a lie. I never saw it as a "point of view". I saw it as Ben being respectful both to Luke's aunt and uncle, who didn't want Luke growing up with that kind of weight, as well as to Luke's innocence, who having lived with his aunt and uncle wasn't prepared for that kind of shock. Ben astutely felt that Luke wasn't ready for that. Luke didn't even know who Darth Vader was at that time.

He did reveal that Luke's father was a Jedi. Which can, in the new light, be considered as starting to prepare Luke for the reality of his family.

I don't think you are wrong about any of your observations however thanks to moments like Lukes's exchange with Obi-wan on Degobah in Return of the Jedi it was made into an issue within the narrative. If the exchange in A New Hope just came down to a kindly old man sparing a youngster some frustration it would never have been brought up again.
The truth is George Lucas admitted that he'd painted himself into a corner and had to devise a way out. If the author believes it was a real problem it was a real problem.

[wayfriend]

I guess I never had a problem there either. Again, I never took those lines as anything except Ben providing a teachable moment: you know why I didn't tell you about your father - that's an example of how we can choose to view the world in different ways, so when you confront someone viewing the world in a different way, remember that day and remember that sometimes there are reasons.

If Lucas didn't say there was a problem I never would have seen one. But, then again, my automatic response is to adjust my interpretation to new information rather than fight it, if it's within reason.

(Don't get me going about season 2 of Mr. Robot ...)

[Avatar]

It never really bothered me either, I must say. Always thought Obi-Wan literally saw Vader as a different person to Anakin. A side of him (a dark side obviously) that rose into prominence, destroying the normal Anakin that he'd known.

--A

[aTOMiC]

It never really bothered me either, I must say. Always thought Obi-Wan literally saw Vader as a different person to Anakin. A side of him (a dark side obviously) that rose into prominence, destroying the normal Anakin that he'd known.

--A

Heh. Trust me. According to us American, Star Wars hyper-nerds its a big deal.

And of course, as I mentioned before, Lucas himself saw it as a serious issue.

Great that some of you glossed over that though. Must have been much more entertaining without you and dozens of your friends going "WTF?!?" in the theater. I bet you guys don't have an opinion on whether Han shot first or not.

[Avatar]

That one I have an opinion on.

Anyway, who said Jedi aren't allowed to lie? He lied about the droids too.

And don't we tell people "you're not the same person as you used to be?" I always saw it as something like that.

That's the problem with Lucas...even when he doesn't get it wrong, he thinks he has and has to somehow fix it.

--A

[High Lord Tolkien]

It never really bothered me either, I must say. Always thought Obi-Wan literally saw Vader as a different person to Anakin. A side of him (a dark side obviously) that rose into prominence, destroying the normal Anakin that he'd known.

--A

Same with me.

[aTOMiC]

It never really bothered me either, I must say. Always thought Obi-Wan literally saw Vader as a different person to Anakin. A side of him (a dark side obviously) that rose into prominence, destroying the normal Anakin that he'd known.

--A

Same with me.

I don't disagree in general and I do understand your point of view.

However there is no reason to have believed that Anakin was consumed by the Dark side of the force and became Darth Vader after only watching A New Hope. You only have what is demonstrated on screen and what is explicit is that Obi Wan tells Luke that Darth Vader betrays and murders his father. Its 3 years of waiting until The Empire Strikes Back offers a twist on this scenario and even then all you get is a few lingering words from Luke saying "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" at the end of the film. It was possible to guess but back then we didn't have enough information to believe anything beyond the fact that Darth Vader claims to be Luke's father who he is believed to have murdered. We wondered "Is Vader Lying?" "Was Anakin not really Luke's Father?" "Why would Obi-Wan lie about this?"

By the time Obi-Wan finally explains to Luke about what he really meant in the first film its been 6 real time years for us as viewers and before Return of the Jedi nobody knew how Lucas was going to explain this. It just isn't possible to definitively believe that Vader/Anakin are the same person unless you've watched the entire first trilogy and before 1983 that was impossible.

I am one of those people that experienced this story real time. I saw Star Wars in 1977 at the age of 12, Empire at 15 and Jedi at 18.

However I can understand how someone would gloss over the whole thing if they watched the entire first trilogy on vhs tape in the late 80s or early 90s in one evening and had only a few hours to absorb it all. Anakin being absorbed by the Darth Vader persona would seem like a matter of fact science fiction trope that has been used hundreds of times in other stories. Heck it would be even less significant if you didn't watch Star Wars until the prequels began appearing in the theaters. In fact you'd almost have to believe its much ado about nothing because the whole focus and function of the prequels is to drive home the point so there's nothing left of the original controversy. Come to think of it its one of the most blatant and effective science fiction retcon jobs ever perpetrated.

[wayfriend]

However there is no reason to have believed that Anakin was consumed by the Dark side of the force and became Darth Vader after only watching A New Hope.

True. In the ANH version, Anakin is one person, and Darth is a different person, whom we know was seduced by the Dark Side, but not when.

Let's stipulate that the plot for TESB and TROTJ was worked out at the same time. So there is only one single retcon.

We now know that they are both one and the same person. But we also know that this one person had two phases of their life - pre-seduced and post-seduced. (As Yoda implies in TESB.)

By having Anakin be a good guy before he was a bad guy, he has, in a manner of speaking, two lives. It's as if he WAS two people, loyal Jedi and Imperial Nemesis.

The point being, if you look at it that way, the retcon still fits the ANH version of the story, BY DESIGN. If you allow for some poetic license. It well fits into the broad category of "plot twist" which we would find acceptable in a story, even if it had been planned that way from the beginning.

This is why I fail to see any issue.

LUKE
You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father.

BEN
You father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I have told you was true... from a certain point of view.

LUKE (turning away, derisive)
A certain point of view!

BEN
Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

All I see here is Ben spelling out what was perfectly deducible from what we already have seen.

[aTOMiC]

All I see here is Ben spelling out what was perfectly deducible from what we already have seen.

I understand. I really do. I am a die hard Star Wars fan and I accept it all at the end of the day. Its just sloppy writing is all.

I would have an easier time letting this whole thing go if Obi Wan Kenobi spent more time on screen not saying exactly what he meant.

Obi Wan: "I crossed the river and encountered the Gungan named Jar Jar."

Qui Gon: "I'm sorry? What the hell are you talking about?"

Obi Wan: "What I really meant to say was I happened upon Jar Jar's mutilated corpse and proceeded to hack it to bits with my light saber. How do you not understand that from what I said? Boy you are thick sometimes Master. Yeesh!"

[High Lord Tolkien]

It never really bothered me either, I must say. Always thought Obi-Wan literally saw Vader as a different person to Anakin. A side of him (a dark side obviously) that rose into prominence, destroying the normal Anakin that he'd known.

--A

Same with me.

I don't disagree in general and I do understand your point of view.

However there is no reason to have believed that Anakin was consumed by the Dark side of the force and became Darth Vader after only watching A New Hope. You only have what is demonstrated on screen and what is explicit is that Obi Wan tells Luke that Darth Vader betrays and murders his father. Its 3 years of waiting until The Empire Strikes Back offers a twist on this scenario and even then all you get is a few lingering words from Luke saying "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" at the end of the film. It was possible to guess but back then we didn't have enough information to believe anything beyond the fact that Darth Vader claims to be Luke's father who he is believed to have murdered. We wondered "Is Vader Lying?" "Was Anakin not really Luke's Father?" "Why would Obi-Wan lie about this?"

You lost me. To me those questions at that point made the movie more interesting.
Did you have the same issue when you found out that Leia was Luke's sister? Why did you believe Vader then when you weren't sure about the revelation about Vader being Luke's father. Did you need to see the end of Ep3 to understand that fully or was the general concept shown at the end of RotJ enough?

By the time Obi-Wan finally explains to Luke about what he really meant in the first film its been 6 real time years for us as viewers and before Return of the Jedi nobody knew how Lucas was going to explain this. It just isn't possible to definitively believe that Vader/Anakin are the same person unless you've watched the entire first trilogy and before 1983 that was impossible.

Not at all. I didn't need to know anything beyond what Obi-Wan said and what we learned as the trilogy progressed.

I am one of those people that experienced this story real time. I saw Star Wars in 1977 at the age of 12, Empire at 15 and Jedi at 18.

Same here (minus a 2 years).

However I can understand how someone would gloss over the whole thing if they watched the entire first trilogy on vhs tape in the late 80s or early 90s in one evening and had only a few hours to absorb it all.

Nope.

Anakin being absorbed by the Darth Vader persona would seem like a matter of fact science fiction trope that has been used hundreds of times in other stories. Heck it would be even less significant if you didn't watch Star Wars until the prequels began appearing in the theaters. In fact you'd almost have to believe its much ado about nothing because the whole focus and function of the prequels is to drive home the point so there's nothing left of the original controversy. Come to think of it its one of the most blatant and effective science fiction retcon jobs ever perpetrated.

Ah well. I disagree.

[aTOMiC]

Amazing. In all the years I have discussed this with people I have never met anyone that...never mind.

I have been battling a thousand with discussion threads lately anyhow. Must be an odd planetary alignment or something.

[Avatar]

You just never discussed it with the right people.

--A

[aTOMiC]

You just never discussed it with the right people.

--A

That's probably true. I instead foolishly spoke to everyone I knew and a huge number of people on the internet starting back when I got my first home computer in 1995. I should have waited until last week and saved myself a headache that frankly is still forcing me to eat Extra Strength Excedrin once every few hours. I'll be fine. Don't worry about little old me. I survived the final episode of LOST I can deal with this.

[wayfriend]

I rewatched Lost end-to-end. I found the ending to be much more enjoyable the second time through.

[aTOMiC]

I rewatched Lost end-to-end. I found the ending to be much more enjoyable the second time through.

Ok. Now you guys are just messing with me.

[aTOMiC2]

I hate to break it to all of you but there is something you should know.

Obi-Wan drops a giant bombshell and I don't think anyone noticed it but me. After reading all of the posts in this thread I discovered that one must scrutinize ALL of what Obi-Wan Kenobi says for indirect meanings and intentions other than in the literal sense to be completely forgiven for it later. When filtering his dialog through that criteria a startling realization is revealed...

Obi-Wan Kenobi is Luke Skywalker's Father!

See for yourself below. I've heard this exchange of dialog dozens of times and never considered the implications until my thinking was corrected by this thread.

Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: [as Luke wakes up after being knocked out by Tuskan Raiders] Rest easy, son. You've had a busy day. You're fortunate to be all in one piece.
Luke Skywalker: Ben? Ben Kenobi? Boy, am I glad to see you.
Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: The Jundland Wastes are not to be traveled lightly. Tell me, young Luke, what brings you out this far?
Luke Skywalker: [indicating R2-D2] This little droid. I think he's searching for his former master. I've never seen such devotion in a droid before. Ah, he claims to be the property of an Obi-Wan Kenobi. Is he a relative of yours? Do you know what he's talking about?
Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: [thoughtfully] Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan... Now, that's a name I've not heard in a long time. A long time.
Luke Skywalker: I think my uncle knows him. He said he was dead.
Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: Oh, he's not dead. Not yet.
Luke Skywalker: You know him?
Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: But of course I know him. He's me.
[R2 beeps in surprise]
Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: I haven't gone by the name of Obi-Wan since... oh, before you were born.

Holy crap!!! Talk about a massive freudian slip.

I think everyone that has posted in this thread will have no trouble agreeing with me. Just remember where you heard this when you go to Facebook and begin telling your friends and the rest of the world.

It definitely puts the entire Star Wars saga in a different light. Most disturbing of all is how this affects Padme's reputation. She is revealed to be a woman of loose ethics. Aside from Luke and Leia's incestuous relationship I had no idea Star Wars was so filthy. Just shocking.

[Avatar]

I rewatched Lost end-to-end. I found the ending to be much more enjoyable the second time through.

Ok. Now you guys are just messing with me.

I never watched Lost.

And I love that scene from A New Hope.

--A

[Cagliostro]

I get your point, Tom, as I felt terribly betrayed by Obi-Wan as well. And then I just found it dumb that Leia was Luke's sister. But I felt like Obi-Wan lied, same as you. It made me angry at Ben at the time.