The will of God

[Sheol]

Let us say there is somebody you know who is on the verge of death. You pray that they live and can live out the rest of thier days. But then they die with what it seems, little heed to what you prayed. You say it's God's will. I have heard this so much it got me thinking. If he is just going to do what he wants to anyway, why not skip the praying part and go straight to God's will? And what if the thing you pray for is not in this "divine plan" of his? Is he just going to change the plan? Doesn't sound like a good idea that every shmuck with a $2 prayer can come and mess up your plan. And it also seems to me that people often treat God rather rudely. I want a new car. I want a better job. I want to win the lottery. How selfish. Here is a supreme being who has promised you eternal salvation for the cost of faith. I hear all these religous fanatics preeching about how the only thing in this life that matters is faith and the sooner we leave here the sooner we get to heaven. So why worry so much about praying for things in this life, you believe that if you have faith heaven everlasting is your reward, isn't that enough? It seems that these people are a little greedy, they want to have thier cake and eat it too.

[dennisrwood]

i try not to ask for specific things. I thank God for what I have, I pray for other a lot. I ask for strength to go through with what I need to do.
but since I don't know God's will, and I don't know the outcome of events, why should I not ask for help for me or others? He tells us..."knock and it shall be answered" by praying I am doing as commanded. I give myself to His power. I ask to be a vehicle for His will. by submitting I become what I was intended. and I ask for the end of suffering. even knowing that heaven is our reward, I still don't want people to suffer while they are here.

[ChoChiyo]

It is good to pray for whatever--if God is our divine father, like a father, he is interested in what we have to say and what we want--but he also has to say NO sometimes, just like the biological father does.

I think that it's a matter of perspective. God sees the outcomes of all the stuff we pray for. Maybe if I won the lottery, I'd be swept up in a life of debauchery--or turn into a REPUBLICAN!!!!! (Kidding, kidding).

When I'm being logical, I pray, "Not my will but thine be done"--or, more likely, I say, "Whatever happens, let me be okay with it. Help me to understand why it has to be this way." or "Give me the strength to deal with what is to come."

For example, if a loved one is at death's door, and you pray for him/her to survive, and he/she does, but is permanently impaired so that their quality of life just sucks. Or that they are in constant pain?

Sometimes death IS the best thing.

I would rather die than be a vegetable or be in constant pain or be dependent on someone else continuously for everything.

[Avatar]

Could be that ChoChiyo is right here. I certainly think Sheol makes a good point when he mentions the apparent self-serving nature of most prayers.

Personally, as a Discordian, I don't pray. Discordianism considers prayer to be far too dangerous, and instead we content ourselves with a simple "Hail Eris" and let her take care of it.

History records far too many examples of people praying for rain, and then being wiped out in the ensuing flash flood.

As the saying goes, "Be careful of what you wish for...You might just get it."

--A

[Cybrweez]

I think prayer is a very deep topic. Can't be explained very easily. I think one purpose of prayer is to have communication w/God. Jesus prayed to His Father constantly, such as in the garden when He asked Him to remove this cup, but not His will but Your's be done. This is the same scenario as your friend Sheol. Why does Jesus pray this? I think it opens communication, and helps us to rely on Him, rather than our own means. Also, when we TRULY believe God is in control, circumstances won't change that trust, b/c we put our trust in Him, not our feelings.

As for the faith movement, which is like "name it and claim it", anything can be twisted to suit our needs, and this is an example. They can take a few verses out of context and boom, they have a foundation to start a ministry (ie, ask for money). Also, there are the hyper-calvinists, which believe basically that we don't have free will, God has already determined who's saved or not, so we shouldn't bother sharing our faith or praying for others, b/c it don't matter. I don't believe this is Biblical at all. Paul says that he prays constantly for others.

[dennisrwood]

i have adoration on Mondays. i pray for most of the hour. reflect for the other time. i make an effort to pray selflessly. i don't ask for specifics for myself. i ask for assistance. i pray for a list of folks, for the babies aborted. friends, family, anyone else who may need prayer. i pray every day. i pray when i bless my food. i pray at mass. i pray at confession.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Avatar Wrote

Personally, as a Discordian, I don't pray. Discordianism considers prayer to be far too dangerous, and instead we content ourselves with a simple "Hail Eris" and let her take care of it.

Let her take care of it?! Are you Crazy?! ...oh.... right.... nevermind.... you pope's think you know Everything.

[ChoChiyo]

Light a candle for me, Dennis. I always thought that was such a beautiful symbolic act. There's a lot of beauty in the Catholic church.

Edit: Sometime, I'm gonna buy a lottery ticket and pray, "Just think about it, God, okay? Just consider it."

Heh heh heh

Okay--waiting for the lightning bolt now....

[Avatar]

Let her take care of it?! Are you Crazy?! ...oh.... right.... nevermind.... you pope's think you know Everything.

The possibility can never be discounted. But as Mal said, "Don't reject my teachings because I am crazy; I am crazy because they are true."

Oh, BTW I gave up papacy long ago. I'm a genuine and authorised Deity now. And I have a card to prove it.

--Avatar

[dennisrwood]

Cho: will do. our candles are three... Mary, Joseph, the Virgin of Guadalaupe (one of my patron saints)
do you have a preference?

a light a candle for my dad, for my aunt, for my brother, for my grandmother, and for the aborted babies. i honor prayer requests as well. i love the act of praying. of the rosary. of lighting candles.
and since no one here cares anyway, I just love being Catholic. I love the holy water, the crucifix, the priests, the nuns, the symbolism, the rituals...

[Avatar]

Aah yes, the pageantry, the sense of history and tradition. Why oh why did they stop saying mass in Latin?

Actually, although I tease, I know what you mean, and understand the attraction of just those things.

My great aunt was a benedictine nun BTW. Cloistered since 1926 or so, and just died recently in her 90's, a lovely, but very stern and religiously uncompromising, woman.

She was one of the most outspoken opponents of women clergy, and probably a whole host of other things as well, including the right of nuns to wear trousers when working in the garden.

She used to refer to my branch of the family (some of whom are (fairly) religious), as Pagans, because they didn't go to see the pope when he visited SA. (She was cloistered in Stanbrook Abbey, in the UK.)

--A

[dennisrwood]

Avatar: I had a great-aunt who was a nun. I attended a mass in Spanish this past Sunday. we are rotating churches in this county, i want to see all the Catholic churches around here. I never got to see the Pope, and it looks like i never will.

[Avatar]

Yeah, looks like he's on his way to finding out if he's been right after all.

In fact, now that we've mentioned it, I'll be very interested to see what a new, younger pontiff will do. Of all times in history, this is the time when the church needs to be considering it's stand point on a variety of issues very carefully, and for all of the considerable good that JPII has done, I think that some new blood is definitely due.

Of course, you know what those seven puffs of white smoke are?

--Avatar

[dennisrwood]

i'm hoping for the one from Africa, his name escapes me. but having someone who has dealt with aids on a day-to-day basis and the genocides all over Africa would only be good for the Church.
i'm worried that our Pontiff won't be around much longer, in fact I've been depressed all night about it.

you mean those puffs aren't the papers?

[Avatar]

...having someone who has dealt with aids on a day-to-day basis and the genocides all over Africa would only be good for the Church.

Agreed. All men die though, and as a christian, who believes in the popes mandate from god, it shouldn't bother you too much. Not to mention the fact that these are changing times, and as times change, so must our leaders.

...you mean those puffs aren't the papers?

Might be what they wrap those papers around

--A

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Zing.

Err.. heheh....

So, just a bit off topic (although if you make God Goddess, it's not Too off topic) are there any active discordian cabals in SA?

I'm definately on the way to starting one here. There's nothing that's quite as fun as subjecting...err... spreading the discordian message to the masses

[dennisrwood]

Avatar: I look forward to a new pope, but I will miss the man. he is a good man. and doing better.

[Avatar]

Glad to hear it Dennis.

So, just a bit off topic (although if you make God Goddess, it's not Too off topic) are there any active discordian cabals in SA?

I'm definately on the way to starting one here. There's nothing that's quite as fun as subjecting...err... spreading the discordian message to the masses

Do you know, I've never even tried to find out. I'm not really much of a team player, and even when I dabbled in Wicca, I never went for the Coven thing. In all respects, I'm a solitary practitioner of everything. That way, it's all my way.

--Avatar

[Kymbierlee]

History records far too many examples of people praying for rain, and then being wiped out in the ensuing flash flood.

That's why Paganism usually adds the qualifier "With harm toward none and Love toward all." That serves to help take care of prayers that backfire.......

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Well, the only valid discordian group would be one in which they never agree, I would imagine.

Besides, in groups you have access to the holy sacrement of the prank. A group of discordians can cause a lot of chaos in little time.

A cabal my friend is a part of in Cincinnatti once misdirected two seperate protest marches (one pro choice, one pro life) directly into each other.