Bloodguard = Masters in disguise?

[Variol Farseer]

A rather disturbing idea occurred to me, and I thought I'd toss it out for discussion and dismemberment.

Under the New Lords, the only humans in the Land who did not swear the Oath of Peace were the Bloodguard and the Ramen. (Which was lucky for them both, because if they had sworn, they wouldn't have been able to keep being rude to each other for the next 7000 years. But I digress.) No precise dates are given for the founding of the new Council of Lords, but it seems reasonable to suppose that the Bloodguard returned to the Land at about the same time as the Stonedownors and Woodhelvennin. So they were doubtless present when the Oath of Peace was first sworn.

This is the disturbing bit:

What if the Bloodguard themselves planted the idea of the Oath in the people's minds? They knew more of Kevin's despair than anyone, and could have laid it on thick in describing how that led him to the Ritual of Desecration. I think they also would have known, from centuries spent with Kevin and his Council, that the Oath was fundamentally in conflict with Kevin's Lore — as Mhoram found out. And as a people who disapproved of lore and weapons, the Haruchai would have had ample motivation to limit the New Lords' power from the start.

If this is so, then the Bloodguard themselves were doing exactly the same thing as the Masters long after. The Haruchai always had that kind of arrogance. (Imagine invading the Land with only 500 men!) In effect, they would have been Masters of the Land perfectly disguised as servants of the Lords.

Which means that the Haruchai who settled in Revelstone were merely keeping alive an idea that their ancestors had fully developed before Covenant ever came to the Land. (And nobody can keep an idea alive better than a race of telepaths. Direct mind-to-mind transmission beats anything you can do with books or legends.) Perhaps Linden thought, with her own brand of arrogance, that the Haruchai had gone astray while she was away, and now she could set them straight. But what if the Masters were carrying out a plan conceived thousands of years before Linden ever heard of the Land? No wonder she couldn't get them to budge. And that in turn would have disturbing implications for the Last Chronicles.

Think there might be anything to this?

[drew]

It sounds plausable.

A couple humble note though :

The author had no intentions of a 2nd or 3rd chronicles at the time he invented the Bloodguard.

Why didn't they try to re-contact the Land during Mhoram's (and his sucessors') reign?

But I deffinatley like the idea of the Bloodguard being responsible for the Oath Of Peace-That was brilliant!!

Presumably they cooked it up during the 500 year hiatus when no on e was in the Land.

[Variol Farseer]

It sounds plausable.

A couple humble note though :

The author had no intentions of a 2nd or 3rd chronicles at the time he invented the Bloodguard.

Why didn't they try to re-contact the Land during Mhoram's (and his sucessors') reign?

You're quite right that SRD had no Second Chronicles in mind when he invented the Bloodguard . . . but he found new uses for a lot of other things once he started on The Wounded Land. It's likely that writing about the Masters has taught him to look at the Bloodguard in a new way. It's just barely possible that his new way could be a bit like mine.

As for Mhoram and his successors, they had consciously chosen to keep the Oath of Peace even though it meant rejecting the full power of Kevin's Lore. At that point — if the Haruchai really were thinking about such things — the Lords were not powerful enough to Desecrate anything or anybody. The danger was past.

Once the Sunbane was well underway, the Haruchai could see that a new threat had arisen: clearly somebody was monkeying around with the Earthpower in a pretty devastating way. Maybe that's why they started sending expeditions into the Land.

[ur-bane]

Intriguing and brilliant, VF!

I had always felt that the Lords swore the Oath of Peace based on Haruchai accounts of the Desecration. But to then take it further and suggest that there was intent by the Haruchai in the telling of the story, well...that is just brilliant.

And it fits. Surely the Haruchai in their arrogance would see it as a natural course given the history they shared with the Old Lords. And, in that case, they had always, albeit unknowingly, been the servants of Despite.

[dlbpharmd]

I like this theory - it would be nice if we could get our resident Haruchai experts to weigh in on this too.

[duchess of malfi]

I also like this theory.

And the way the Bloodguard kept their mouths shut about Amok and other Wards/Earthpowerful things -- even when the fate of the Land hung in the balance -- certainly gives credence to it.

[MrKABC]

Too true... After all, the Bloodguard HAD to have known where the Seven Wards were... They would have accompanied High Lord Kevin when he hid them. Why didn't they say anything to the new Lords?

[[Syl]]

The problem, as I see it, with this theory is that the Haruchai are a reactionary sort of people. They react to their loss to Kevin by swearing the Oath. They react to the demonstrated possibility of their corruption by abandoning their Oath. They react to their slaughter at the hands of the Clave by becoming the Masters. There are a million examples of how they react to threats in the 2nd Chrons. They refuse to budge from whatever position they're in until it becomes untenable and then immediately entrench themselves in another. At this rate, I wonder what calamity will befall the Haruchai to make them abandon their Mastership.

No, I just don't see the Haruchai as plotters. It's "We suffice," not "We will suffice."

[Fist and Faith]

The problem, as I see it, with this theory is that the Haruchai are a reactionary sort of people. They react to their loss to Kevin by swearing the Oath. They react to the demonstrated possibility of their corruption by abandoning their Oath.

*tsk tsk* Breaks your heart, don't it?



But I'm not sure I agree with your point. As Masters, they don't merely refuse to spread, and even discourage the spread of, knowledge, they actually imprison those who use Earthpower. They're not just hoping for the best, they're forcing people to live in a certain way, thinking it will lead to their desired goal. That's more intrusive/invasive/whatever than suggesting the Oath of Peace.

[finn]

Their austerity is their weakness. They are so intent on purity of service that they fail to see that nothing is perfect. The Samurai hones himself towards a purity of service, but the Haruchai try to do this as a race, therefore there is never any potential for growth.

The next Samurai can examine the last and makes a judgement on the effects of that service, the Haruchai however cannot objectively judge themselves as they are all of one mind. Any criticism has to be determined by a fight where it appears at least, that a two third majority is needed!

They hone and refine over such a long time period and with such intensity that it polishes away by erosion all the service given. Their sheer rigidity in the face of changing circumstances makes it destines to fail.

What a place to live their homeland must be, constantly squaring up for mental confrontation followed by a fight over everything! Their women must be good to keep them in line!

[ur-bane]

The problem, as I see it, with this theory is that the Haruchai are a reactionary sort of people...

No, I just don't see the Haruchai as plotters. It's "We suffice," not "We will suffice."

This POV, IMHO strengthens the claim that there may have been intent behind the telling of their tale. They certainly are reactionary, and it is that reaction that breeds intent. They saw that their service was inadequate when Kevin sent them away and performed the RoD. In order to ensure success, they needed be be sure the Lords were not powerful enough to repeat Kevin's legacy. It makes perfect sense.

It is their arrogant reaction that caused them to relate Kevin's tale in such a way as to subliminally urge the Lords to swear their Oath.

"We suffice" is another way of saying ONLY we suffice. In other words, we know what is best in order to avoid another Desecration.

Because they are reactionary, and because they "suffice", they are blind to the real truth. Covenant tried to tell them, but they wouldn't listen.


EDIT: Just another point of interest: What (or who) made them come to the Land in the first place? What seed was planted in their minds that they needed to invade the Land as they did, thus starting the engine that drove the vehicle of their Vow?

EDIT2: I need to add to this. I have been thinking about this thread since I first read it, and in light of Sylvanus' reactionary behavior, I have more to ponder.
In essence, everybody in the Chronicles is a reactionary crature. It is the nature of the beast. Lena reacted to her rape by protecting Covenant as best she could. Triock reacted by attempting to revenge his act. Atiaran reacted by holding her Oath at first. Mhoram reacted to Covenant by proclaiming him Ur-Lord.(Or Prothall...I don;t remember. ) Everyone and everything "reacts". The fact of a reaction is not the key. The key is HOW they react.
The Bloodguard react by subtly trying to control the Lords. They will not allow them to perform another Desecration. Bannor withholds his aid in Kiril Threndor until he knows Covenant is not an enemy of the Land. What is that, if not control Covenant's fate? Bannor would have let the Land's hero die if he so chose.

Whether they show it or not, the more I look at this scenario, the more I am inclined to believe that the Bloodguard actively (in a reactionary way) controlled the fate of the Land and pushed the Lords in certain directions, and were unknowingly playing into Foul's hands. In their arrogance, they thought they were doing the right thing and nobody thought to question them until it was too late.

[dlbpharmd]

Just another point of interest: What (or who) made them come to the Land in the first place? What seed was planted in their minds that they needed to invade the Land as they did, thus starting the engine that drove the vehicle of their Vow?

I remember two different reasons given but I can't remember their respective sources (Gildenfire and Runes). One is that the Haruchai came east to the Land in search of resources - food, etc. The other is just that they were war-like and came to conquer.

[wayfriend]

I don't think there's anything to a Haruchai conspiracy theory. Planting the idea for the Oath of Peace surreptitiously is against their nature - and for a Donaldson story, that's make or break for an idea.

If the Bloodguard ever decided to direct the Lords or the people in a disguised manner, they would recognize it for what it is - falseness to those that they serve, which is Corruption itself.

We know how the Bloodguard continue to revere Kevin. (The plot of TIW depends on it.) They don't consider Kevin to have been irresponsible or have betrayed the Land, they only believe that he succombed to despair - that he did not match up to the Despiser. So they repackaged their oath to include being vigilant against despair. (Which is of course another thing that led to the breaking of the Vow, but that's another topic.)

The Bloodguard would also never demand a price for their service. They serve because of the worthiness of what they serve. So they would never get it into their heads to want an Oath from those that they served; they would either serve or withdraw their service. (As we come to know.) And if for some reason it does enter their heads, they would certainly do it openly - everyone would know what the Bloodguard asked for. Hiding it would either arise from embarrassment or deceptiveness, and neither of these qualities are the Haruchai's.

Finally, the Haruchai are passionate to the extreme. This is how they live; they would never ask less of others. Even in Runes, it is not the passion of the people that they hold in check, it is the Earthpower.

[[Syl]]

But I'm not sure I agree with your point. As Masters, they don't merely refuse to spread, and even discourage the spread of, knowledge, they actually imprison those who use Earthpower. They're not just hoping for the best, they're forcing people to live in a certain way, thinking it will lead to their desired goal. That's more intrusive/invasive/whatever than suggesting the Oath of Peace.

More invasive, definately. I've never known a Haruchai to care about invading someone's personal space (be it with a well-timed kick or punch or a look of reproach). But it's still not plotting. They've just gone from bodyguards to (fairly benevolent) jailers.

[wayfriend]

But I'm not sure I agree with your point. As Masters, they don't merely refuse to spread, and even discourage the spread of, knowledge, they actually imprison those who use Earthpower. They're not just hoping for the best, they're forcing people to live in a certain way, thinking it will lead to their desired goal. That's more intrusive/invasive/whatever than suggesting the Oath of Peace.

More invasive, definately. I've never known a Haruchai to care about invading someone's personal space (be it with a well-timed kick or punch or a look of reproach). But it's still not plotting. They've just gone from bodyguards to (fairly benevolent) jailers.

The Haruchai don't imprison people for using Earthpower. The only evidence of imprisoning anyone is with respect to Anele, and that is because he is Earthpower, not because he uses it.

[Variol Farseer]

The Haruchai don't imprison people for using Earthpower. The only evidence of imprisoning anyone is with respect to Anele, and that is because he is Earthpower, not because he uses it.

I'm not at all sure about that. They don't permit anyone to use Earthpower. What do they usually do if someone uses it? Shout, 'Stop, or I'll say "Stop" again'? Obviously they have some way of stopping people, and since moral suasion has never been the Haruchai's strong point, I'd guess that they stop people by force. Maybe that means imprisonment; maybe it just means killing the offenders before they can pass on their knowledge to anyone else.

The fear and suspicion with which the people of the Land regard the Masters suggest that whatever their methods are, they aren't particularly gentle.

[Avatar]

I certainly agree with VF's last post there, but I do think WayFriend had a good point earlier where he talks about the "directness" of the Haruchai. Subtlety in not something they really favour.

They've always been quite blunt about things, like Bannor telling Covenant that he had waited to rescue him, or explaining that they'll kill him if he threatens the Lords.

Plotting, as WayFriend says, is not in their nature. If anything, (now that I'm thinking about it), they are like the student of mashu-te (?) from The Killing Stroke, the art of the "Direct Fist". If they oppose you, you'll be the first to know.

Still, great posts, and plenty food for thought VF.

--Avatar

[Fist and Faith]

the art of the "Direct Fist"

I invented that.

[Avatar]

--A