Christians Keeping Kosher?

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Christians Keeping Kosher?

Post by [Syl] »

www.cjf.org/pages/kosher1.htm

Personally, I think this would be really hard (though probably good in the long run). Jews are accustomed to living under a strict set of rules, kosher being part of that. But if your god commands you to follow a certain diet, and you fail, how does that affect your faith?

Perhaps any (practicing) Mormons could chime in? I remember certain things being off limits due to the Words of Wisdom (along with Pearls of Great Price, a kind of ancilliary document to the Book of Mormon), such as coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco, etc. Consequently, I know a lot of Jack Mormons. I call them family. :mrgreen:
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Syl,
But if your god commands you to follow a certain diet, and you fail, how does that affect your faith?
Speaking as a Christian, from our point of view, one of the accomplishments of Christ during his time on Earth was a reversion of legalism - a major part of which is dietary rules. Christ said that the legalist Pharisees “disregard God’s commandment but cling to human tradition.” What he’s saying here, I think, is that the Pharisees are far too concerned with meaningless tradition, because he goes on to say that it doesn’t matter if food is unclean since it will pass into the latrine. It is from within, Jesus is saying, that truly defiling things come from.
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Post by Menolly »

Very interesting article, Syl!

LM, did you read it? As a practicing Jew, I don't know fi the argument presented in the paper really holds water, but I found the following interesting:

:::hoping y'all don't mind me editing the words G-d, L-rd, JC, etc.:::

From Does the New Testament Do Away with Old Testament Dietary Laws?:
However, is this really what the New Testament teaches? Have unkosher creatures like rats, mice, spiders, snakes, cockroaches, cats, pigs, oysters, crabs, frogs, rabbits, and dogs really been approved under the New Covenant for human consumption? Let us examine some key proof texts often used to prove that the kosher laws have been canceled.

Acts 10:9-15
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, L-rd; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What G-d hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Traditional "Chr-stian" Interpretation: The Lord was showing Peter that the kosher laws do not apply to Chr-stians. He -old Peter to slaughter unkosher animals and eat them. This means G-d has cleansed even unkosher creatures and they are now divinely approved for human consumption.

Correct Interpretation: It is misleading to stop reading in Verse 15 because Peter himself provides the correct interpretation a few verses later: "And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but G-d hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean" (Acts 10:28 ).

G-d used the clean and unclean animals as an illustration to teach Peter an important lesson. However, the lesson was not about food, but about people. Did Peter say, "G-d has shown me that I should not call any food unclean"? No, he realized that was not what the L-rd was showing him. Instead, he said, "G-d has shown me that I should not call any man unclean."

The point was that the Gentiles, considered unkosher by ancient Jewish authorities (see the Mishnah at Ohalot 18:7; Mitzvot Torah, pr neg. 143; Maimonides in Hilchot Rotzeach, c. 12. sect. 7; Zohar in Exod. fol. 21. 1; Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Erubin, fol. 62. 2), had been cleansed through faith in the Messiah.

In other words, J-sus can make a Gentile kosher! At this pivotal point in church history (Acts 10), they learned that believing Gentiles were to be accepted and welcomed as full-fledged members of the Family of G-d.

Romans 14:14-17
I know, and am persuaded by the L-rd J-sus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Chr-st died. Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of G-d is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Traditional Interpretation: To mature Chr-stians, nothing in itself is "clean" or "unclean." We are free to consume anything we wish. However, the Jewish Chr-stians in Rome were "weaker" (spiritually) than the Gentile believers. They were still bound by the Law and wanted to keep the kosher laws. Therefore, Paul said the Gentiles should voluntarily abstain from consuming unkosher foods and thereby avoid offending their "weaker" Jewish brethren.

Correct Interpretation: Again, if we read the entire chapter, it interprets itself. (Remember: A text taken out of its context becomes a pretext!) In Verse 2, the Apostle Paul defines the weaker brother as one who eats only vegetables--not one who keeps kosher! (Kosher and vegetarianism are two entirely different things.) The question, then, was not what was kosher and what was not, but whether it was acceptable for a believer to eat meat at all.

There were many problems associated with the consumption of meat in the ancient world--including the fact that meat sacrificed to idols flooded the marketplaces. One might purchase meat in Rome or Corinth, for instance, without even knowing it had come from a pagan temple.

Some believers addressed this problem simply by becoming vegetarians. They were convinced that it was a sacrilege to eat meat that had been dedicated to idols, even unwittingly. The only way to avoid the problem entirely was not to eat meat at all! In 1 Corinthians 8 and 10, Paul discusses this issue extensively and sets the record straight. His remarks here in Romans 14 have nothing to do with kosher laws, but with the eating of meat that had been offered to idols.

Colossians 2:20-22
Wherefore if ye be dead with Chr-st from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Traditional Interpretation: NT believers are not subject to dietary restrictions.

Correct Interpretation: The precise nature of the Colossian heresy is a matter of debate among theologians. It no doubt involved a religious syncretism which blended certain aspects of Jewish law, Gnosticism, and pagan mysticism.

In Judaism, there are literally thousands of man-made (Talmudic) rules and regulations dealing with ritual impurity and kashrut. They have evolved over many centuries, are extremely detailed, and go far beyond the bounds of G-d's original (and relatively simple) kosher laws as outlined in the Torah. These certainly qualify as "commandments and doc- trines of men."

However, the kosher laws themselves--specifically, the guidelines regarding clean and unclean foods--did not come from men, but from G-d, the Author of the Torah. Therefore, the biblical kosher laws are not "the commandments and doctrines of men" condemned here by the Apostle paul.

1 Timothy 4:1-5
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which G-d hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of G-d is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

For it is sanctified by the word of G-d and prayer.

Traditional Interpretation: The Apostle Paul condemns the practice of abstaining from certain foods for religious purposes and shows that every creature G-d made is "good" for food because it is has been "sanctified," or cleansed by the Word of G-d and prayer. Therefore, the kosher laws are no longer in effect for Chr-stians.

Correct Interpretation: When Paul says, "Every creature of G-d is good," the word "every" should not be understood in an absolute sense. Compare, for example, Genesis 1:29, where G-d told Adam and Eve that He had given them "every" tree and plant for food. Does this mean they were supposed to eat lilies, dandelions, and ragweed? Did He want them to nibble on shrubs or the bark of trees? Certainly not!

In the very next chapter, in fact, G-d told them not to eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen. 2:16-17). Only one chapter earlier, G-d had told them they could eat of "every" tree! Obviously, the term "every" should be understood here in a relative, rather than absolute sense.

This same principle applies to the terms "every" and "all" in Genesis 9:3, where G-d told Noah, "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things."

The word "every" here does not mean Noah was going to run right out and start munching on snails, mice, armadillos, lizards, and other unclean delicacies any more than the word "all" means he would start eating poisonous vegetation or leaves from trees.

The meaning in 1 Timothy 4, then, is that every creature G-d made for food is good and should not be refused. It is "sanctified" by the Word of G-d (which tells us in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 which creatures are intended as food and which ones are not) and prayer.

Paul's comments were not aimed at biblical kosher laws at all, but at pagan teachings like those of the spiritists, who claimed that the consumption of animal flesh was a hindrance to contacting the spirit world, or the Theosophists and Hindus, who avoided meat because they believed the souls of departed ancestors were reincarnated in cattle and other animals.
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Menolly,

It is interesting, and I read most of it and another article on the site by Dr. Charles Halff.

As he indicates, equating eating kosher with spirituality doesn't make much sense. In my previous post I was responding to Syl's question on how this affects your faith.
Evidently, God was particularly incensed because some of the Israelites had adopted the Canaanite practice of boiling a kid in its own mother's milk. Maybe they thought the Canaanite method made the meat taste better! However, this practice betrayed an unforgivable insensitivity to the natural, God-ordained relationship between parents and their offspring. The prohibition is related to the commands disallowing the killing of a cow and its calf on the same day (Lev. 22:28), or the taking of a bird with its young (Deut. 22:6). It seems reasonably clear that it was never meant to be a prohibition against eating meat and dairy products at the same time.

Now what about Jewish Christians who choose to follow traditional kashrut, not for biblical or theological reasons, necessarily, but simply because it's part of their Jewish culture? Is this wrong? Certainly not. Remember what we have said before: Gentile culture does not supersede Jewish culture, and vice versa.

A Jewish person does not have to give up his cultural Jewishness when he comes to faith in the Messiah-unless, of course, it were to involve a practice that is clearly unbiblical.

But remember, just because something is non-biblical (that is, not men- tioned in Scripture) does not mean it is unbiblical (or, contrary to biblical teaching). And as far as I know, there is nothing unbiblical about wearing kippot, not eating meat and dairy products at the same meal, or any number of other Jewish cultural practices, unless it is done in a legalistic way (that is, as a means of earning merit with God).
www.cjf.org/pages/kosher2.htm
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Post by Menolly »

Interesting.

His separation of biblical kosher from traditonal kosher helps explain the custom of an Ethiopian tribe which is believed to have left the Jewish people prior to the miracles of Hanukkah.

Apparently, instead of not eating meat and milk at the same meal, they keep extremely detailed records of all their cattle, so that there is no possibility of mixing the milk from one strain of the cattle with the meat from the same strain.

The records supposedly go back a couple hundred years, according to the person I heard speak about it.
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Menolly,

Do you know that if Dr. Halff and the other essayist on the site Syl provided are referring to 'Jewish Christians' in the present tense? I have never heard of a modern Jewish Christian. :? I am wondering exactly what that entails.

Regarding this Ethiopian tribe, that's fascinating. I'd never heard that. :)
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Post by Menolly »

Lord Mhoram wrote:Menolly,

Do you know that if Dr. Halff and the other essayist on the site Syl provided are referring to 'Jewish Christians' in the present tense? I have never heard of a modern Jewish Christian. :? I am wondering exactly what that entails.
Those of us who are practicing Jews according to halacha (although I am definitley more secular than observant), call Jewish Chr-tians 'Messianics' or 'Jews for J-sus.' (J4J). You can probably find a lot on the web about them if you use those terms as search words.

The website Jews for Judiasm was created to try and counteract the proselytising (sp?) the J4Js do. Most practising Jews want nothing to do with Messianics, if they can help it.
Regarding this Ethiopian tribe, that's fascinating. I'd never heard that. :)
I've never searched for info about them, only heard abut them in a talk by a professor on anthropology here at UF.
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Post by Plissken »

Lord Mhoram wrote:Menolly,

Do you know that if Dr. Halff and the other essayist on the site Syl provided are referring to 'Jewish Christians' in the present tense? I have never heard of a modern Jewish Christian. :? I am wondering exactly what that entails.

Regarding this Ethiopian tribe, that's fascinating. I'd never heard that. :)
Off-topic a bit, but the tribe also still "dances before the Ark" ala King David. Their customs and traditions really are quite amazing. (Whether or not they actually have the Ark is another fun bit of debate.)
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Post by Menolly »

Oh, I've heard televison reports about the Ethiopians who claim to have the Ark of the Covenant. But, I didn't connect that it was the same tribe?
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Post by Alynna Lis Eachann »

It's been a while since I studied the New Testament (and in truth, I didn't retain much of it to begin with), but I was under the impression that, as LM said, Jesus countered a great deal of the Old Testament Law, and that food was one of the subjects he treated directly. Are the parts that the www.cjf.org article counters the only ones that mention food and animals in this context? I thought there were other passages wherein Jesus himself spoke on the subject.
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

biblicalholidays.com/dietary%20laws%20Jesus.htm
The Lord’s teachings in Mark 7, etc., reconfirms that certain foods are clean (kosher) and certain foods are not (unclean). Although it is certainly what comes out of the heart that defiles us, the willful, deliberate, habitual violation of His biblical instructions on what is proper/improper food is important. It deserves greater study by all of us. Since Yahweh has not changed His mind, we need to take it more seriously. Jesus most certainly did not nullify the biblical dietary food laws (kashrut)!
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Post by Plissken »

Alynna Lis Eachann wrote:It's been a while since I studied the New Testament (and in truth, I didn't retain much of it to begin with), but I was under the impression that, as LM said, Jesus countered a great deal of the Old Testament Law, and that food was one of the subjects he treated directly. Are the parts that the www.cjf.org article counters the only ones that mention food and animals in this context? I thought there were other passages wherein Jesus himself spoke on the subject.
As far as I know, Christ didn't have anything to say about food. He only said that the Law was made for man, not man for the Law - in reference to the Sabbath.

The dietary stuff was added later, by Paul.
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Post by Iryssa »

Actually, Jesus DID speak to this issue. In Mark 7:15-19 he said:
"Nothing outside a man can make him ‘unclean’ by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him ‘unclean.’
After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”)"
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Post by Avatar »

Very interesting Iryssa.

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Post by ur-bane »

My question is, why should it be a religion's place to tell anyone what food is "clean" or "unclean"? Those kinds of "controls" are what turns me off to religion.
"Thou shalt not kill" is one thing.
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Post by Avatar »

Aah, but leave us not forget that when those "rules" came in, there were pretty good reasons. Like eating pork in the desert, before refrigeration, was a damn good way of getting salmonella or something and dying.

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Post by ur-bane »

Exactly. So now that there is refrigeration, why are those "rules" still in effect?
If "rules" are written based on the times, then they should also change with the times.

But why limit it to only some meats? All meats would rot in the desert without refrigeration. So there has to be more to it than a simple health issue.
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Post by Avatar »

I'd guess that the majority of it was related to health issues and the like. There's a thread in here somewhere where we discuss the origins of "sins" and I believe that Kinslaughterer made some excellent points about it.

If I remember which thread, I'll bump it for you.

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Post by Lord Mhoram »

ur-bane,

You are right of course, but we are dealing with religion here, and religious conservatism finds it very difficult to let things like this go.
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Post by safetyjedi »

This may seem like a stupid question, but I noticed several posts that have the "e" taken out of Jesus and the "i" taken out of Christians. Wuts up wit dat?

Of course there are no stupid questions, just stupid people asking them all the time.
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