The End of the Land?

[Prom_STar]

In the structured interview from SRD website from September 1997, the interviewer asked about a third chronicles. SRD responded (emphasis added):

I remember saying that. At the same time I got the ideas for the second series. I realized it was not done, and I got a grand vision and it needs a third part. And I call it the Last Chronicles of Covenant and there would be no later sequels since the world would end...

Two possibilities:

1.) He's saying the world would essentially end because the story would end and therefore the Land no longer needs to exist (ie in his head). This goes back to SRD saying he never creates aspects of a world or its history unless he needs them for the story.

2.) The Land is actually going to come to an end in the course of the Last Chronicles.

What do you guys think?
After all, Joan's blasting holes in the Arch of Time, Linden's traveling through time and brining some nasty guests (Demondim) with her, there's no one in the land capable of opposing Foul.
They certainly seem screwed.

[Variol Farseer]

I don't even have to put on my thinking cap for that one.

I pick (2).

And something gives me the feeling that things will get worse a lot faster than we expect in Fatal Revenant. By the time The Last Dark rolls around, I imagine a lot of readers who have stuck with TC through thick and thin will be downright afraid to read it.

[wayfriend]

#2. In addition, by the time it rolls around, we'll be all for it.

[Nerdanel]

I also would go for #2. I think we are going to see some seriously bad stuff down the road. If my prologue chapter/book correspondence is true, Linden should have a horrible revelation late in Fatal Revenant after which things will really start to go visibly wrong. Among other things, I think like Covenant's house, the Earth will be revealed to be in a much worse state than anyone suspected and skurj will be let loose to devour the wreckage. (I think some of the language in the prologue clearly hinted at the skurj.)

I'm good at coming up with horrible apophenic scenarios. I think there's no way that Lord Foul won't top the Sunbane in this book like he topped the magical winter of the First Chronicles. I think I'll agree with Wayfriend this time and say that things will be so bad that if someone within the Arch doesn't get the world ended, the Creator himself will do it because he can't stand Lord Foul's total victory over everything, eradication of hope and all.

I think in the end we'll get a fresh new universe based on memories of the previous one. ("The soul in which the flower grows survives.")

[danlo]

Me likes the rug pulled out of me!

[Cail]

Me likes the rug pulled out of me!

How'd you get a rug in you? I don't think I want to know....

I vote #2 as well. From reading the GI, it sounds like SRD wants to get this story out, then put it to bed permanently. I agree that come the 4th book, we'll all be rooting for the Arch to fall.

At least, I hope so. Runes didn't do it for me, and I'm hoping that FR is a vast improvement.

[Avatar]

Yeah, it's gonna be rough...

--A

[Xar]

Yes, I agree... #2 is by far the most probable choice. And I also do agree that it is very likely things will get so bad, that by the end of Shall Pass Utterly we'll be simultaneously horrified due to what's going on in the Land and afraid to read The Last Dark. After all, remember how horrible it was at the end of The One Tree, when the Quest was apparently defeated, and the Sunbane seemed to be impossible to eradicate without a new Staff of Law? I expect the Shall Pass Utterly climax to be an order of magnitude worse than that...

I also wonder... above and beyond "mundane" reasons like Foul managing to break the Arch of Time, or the Creator doing so, or the skurj riving the Land's Earth in two, or whatever... From a psychological point of view (the pov that describes the Land as a place of catharsis and healing for Covenant and Linden, for instance), could it be that the main reason for the Land's continued existence is that Covenant and Linden have not yet reached the end of their journey of spiritual and psychological healing and growth, and that at the end of The Last Dark, the end of the Land will occur because Covenant and Linden finally reach the end of such journey?
To put it another way: if, as SRD said in his GI, in the LC Covenant will discover the strongest and greatest answer to Despite (the natural evolution of the opposition-acceptance concept represented in the FC and SC), could it be that, from that psychological point of view, the Land's continued existence was to allow Covenant to discover this answer, and that once he does that, there is no longer "need" of the Land?

Of course, there's a nagging question that makes me rather uneasy, and that naturally stems from the above assumptions... if the Land ends, what of Covenant and Linden?

[Avatar]

And if the Land was only there to teach them some fundamental lesson about life or themselves, how real was it afterall...?

--A

[Xar]

I didn't say that was the only reason, I'm just saying that it could be one meaning. After all, the Land has already turned out to be a place of spiritual healing for broken people like Covenant and Linden; and SRD discussed at length his concept about fantasy using the environments and stories to analyze the characters' psyche. From this point of view, the end of the Land would mean the end of the spiritual development of Covenant and Linden - and hence, either their total failure or their final achievement.

Not that this would matter much to the countless people who would die if the Land's Earth were to be ended...

[wayfriend]

The following gives me more hope than you all seem to expect. I will point it out, but I don't want to say anything about it.

... If anything, the tradition I was drawing on was Christian (because of my background in fundamentalist Christianity, not because I am in any useful sense a believer): the Trinity, God in Three Persons. Except I obviously wasn't thinking of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. More like Creator, Destroyer, and Holy Ghost (wild magic). Or Creator, Destroyer, and--what shall we call Covenant as the protagonist of the drama?--Acolyte. ...

(04/27/2004)

[KAY1]

I would personally think that the Land isn't just a figment of someone's imagination (well, other than SRD's lol) because of the fact that the Creator interfered in the 'real world'. As did Foul as it goes. Perhaps Covenant and Linden as well as the Land people will find some way more lasting than TC's solution in WGW to in some way prevent Foul from acting overtly. Perhaps by melding the Despiser and The Creator (or a substitue for if the Creator really cannot reach through the arch in any way) into one essence. After all the Despiser is the manifestation of evil, I think and so far we have had him reduced to a squalling baby and buffered by Covenant, so why not absorbed in the same fashion as he absorbed the Venom?

[duchess of malfi]

#2. In addition, by the time it rolls around, we'll be all for it.

I agree with this; but perhaps paradoxically, I am expecting an ending filled with light and hope. The title of the final book The Last Dark could be interpreted as both a final and lasting darkness or as an end to darkness. And knowing Donaldson, he might even find a way to make both interpretations true.

[Prover of Life]

Going to be a long 7 yrs!

[Avatar]

Good point Duchess. I must admit, I never looked at the "positive" interpretation of that title.

And WayFriend, very interesting indeed. Does that mean that the cycle will simply roll over? Perhaps continuosly?

That Covenant will become...well, the Creator is what you seem to be pointing out.

--A

[Xar]

Good point Duchess. I must admit, I never looked at the "positive" interpretation of that title.

And WayFriend, very interesting indeed. Does that mean that the cycle will simply roll over? Perhaps continuosly?

That Covenant will become...well, the Creator is what you seem to be pointing out.

--A

That's an interesting concept... you're describing a cyclical nature of time in the Land's world, in which a Creator creates the current version of the world, and after a long time this slowly falls apart, and a new Creator is required to take the place of the old one. It's an intriguing concept, and it could even be true, partly or fully, given that SRD said the completion of the FC will wrap all the Chronicles into a single whole.

But then the question becomes - if it is true, what of Linden? and where does the next Foul come from? If the answer to the latter is "from the new Creator", how does that happen? Is it a natural consequence of ascending to that exalted role? Or would the current Foul endure to become the nemesis of the Covenant-Creator?

Here's an interesting concept... what if there was such a cycle, but the next Creator were the current Foul? If he's on par with the Creator, who's to say that the end of the Chronicles doesn't see him redeemed?

[wayfriend]

And WayFriend, very interesting indeed. Does that mean that the cycle will simply roll over? Perhaps continuosly?

All I said was, we'll be all for it. I'm not bring up rolling over here.

Suppose someone had told you, after you read the first Chronicles but before you read the Second one, that the Second Chronicles ends with Covenant giving Foul the his ring. I imagine that you might think, ugh! no! a dark ending! I cannot bear!

Of course, it didn't turn out that way. It turned out to be a triumphant, uplifting, change-your-life ending.

I think the Final Chronicles will be that way, and more so, and it'll make the Second Chronicles look shallow in comparison. What we worry about being a dark ending, will in the end be a triumphant, uplifting, change-your-life ending. Thomas will finally have the answer, and we'll have experienced the joy of his learning it.

And we'll look back on this Land-gets-destroyed thing as a yeah-but-that's-okay thing, it was necessary, it ultimately made everything all right.

That's what I think about the ending. And that's why I'm looking forward to it so much.

Frankly, if you're not in that camp - if you're really worried that the end of The Final Dark might be some dark, bleak, down ending -- heck, what're you excited about, then?

Also: no, Donaldson would never, ever turn this into a cyclical story. For the same reason he would never do a prequel. Because the story is about a personal journey, and if it ends back at the beginning, then no one got anywhere - it didn't matter in the sense that Donaldson, I feel, desires.

[Avatar]

A good post WayFriend. Personally, one of the things I always liked about the Chrons was that he wasn't afraid to have terrible things happen. Yes, sure, the terrible things were also good in some sense, but I don't fear that the ending will be dark...hell, I expect it. That's one of the things that make the series so great.

And as for Xar's post, here's one of my guesses:

Spoiler

Linden becomes the Creator, TC becomes Foul.

--A

[wayfriend]

Spoiler

Linden becomes the Creator, TC becomes Foul.

yes, because

Spoiler

TC decides that Foul should be given his freedom.

I have many thoughts along those lines myself.

[High Lord Tolkien]

And as for Xar's post, here's one of my guesses:

Spoiler

Linden becomes the Creator, TC becomes Foul.

No Avatar, the reverse is actually true:

Spoiler

TC becomes the Creator, Linden becomes Foul.

And that line can be found in the preamble of the THOOLAH Constitution as well.