Are the Haruchai human?...and...
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Are the Haruchai human?...and...
AND Are the Ranyhyn the Horse equivalent of the Haruchai?
I've wondered this from time to time. There are many instances in the chronicles where the Haruchai are referred to as 'men', and I suspect what may follow is various discussions on the definition of 'human', but I'm tempted to think of them as a related - but decidedly different - species and not merely a race of man (in the same sense as the Neanderthals were). They have notably longer lifespans (or so it is said, but no clue is ever really given as to how long), they can communicate telepathically, and their strength and toughness is many times that of your average Joe.
Sounds very similar to comparisons between the Ranyhyn and regular horses to me. And, if the same logic holds...can the Ranyhyn really be described as horses...?
I've wondered this from time to time. There are many instances in the chronicles where the Haruchai are referred to as 'men', and I suspect what may follow is various discussions on the definition of 'human', but I'm tempted to think of them as a related - but decidedly different - species and not merely a race of man (in the same sense as the Neanderthals were). They have notably longer lifespans (or so it is said, but no clue is ever really given as to how long), they can communicate telepathically, and their strength and toughness is many times that of your average Joe.
Sounds very similar to comparisons between the Ranyhyn and regular horses to me. And, if the same logic holds...can the Ranyhyn really be described as horses...?
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I think of them as being possibly of human ancestry (or possibly share the same ancestors as humans) but have undergone evolution to become different enough to be another species.
In my understanding of the process of evolution, a population becomes geographically separated from the rest of its species, and changes over time.
The haruchai, in their mountain fastnesses, certainly did not have much (if any contect) with humans before their first invasion of the Land.
Also, the high mountains would have been such an extreme place to live, and the population was probably small enough that any new genetic traits that led to better survival rates would have spread very rapidly.
Also tellingly - we never learn of any matings between haruchai and regular humans. And those are some pretty horny guys. It might be extreme racial pride; perhaps they cannot bear the thought of having sex that might seem to be incomplete to them (I am sure the telepathy makes sex unbelievably good among two haruchai) - but maybe it is an indication that they are different enough from regular humans that they might be another species at this point in time. (Of course the merwives might blow this part of the the explanation out of the water. )
In my understanding of the process of evolution, a population becomes geographically separated from the rest of its species, and changes over time.
The haruchai, in their mountain fastnesses, certainly did not have much (if any contect) with humans before their first invasion of the Land.
Also, the high mountains would have been such an extreme place to live, and the population was probably small enough that any new genetic traits that led to better survival rates would have spread very rapidly.
Also tellingly - we never learn of any matings between haruchai and regular humans. And those are some pretty horny guys. It might be extreme racial pride; perhaps they cannot bear the thought of having sex that might seem to be incomplete to them (I am sure the telepathy makes sex unbelievably good among two haruchai) - but maybe it is an indication that they are different enough from regular humans that they might be another species at this point in time. (Of course the merwives might blow this part of the the explanation out of the water. )
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Very interesting!!duchess of malfi wrote: Also tellingly - we never learn of any matings between haruchai and regular humans. And those are some pretty horny guys. It might be extreme racial pride; perhaps they cannot bear the thought of having sex that might seem to be incomplete to them (I am sure the telepathy makes sex unbelievably good among two haruchai) - but maybe it is an indication that they are different enough from regular humans that they might be another species at this point in time. (Of course the merwives might blow this part of the the explanation out of the water. )
I never thought of how telepathy would make it so much more personal.
Makes perfect sense.
Plus the merewives were also telepathic, in a way, so it would explain the attraction there too.
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I disagree about them not being human. Sure, they're hardy and hardened by their lifestyles, their training, etc, but I have no doubt that they are as human as the Stonedownors and Woodhelvinin.
And as for life-spans, what indication is there that they lived for long? Sure, the BloodGuard were effectively immortal, but that was because of the vow. Bannor was already looking old by TPTP.
The only way that they could be a different species would be if they were unable to breed with a Stonedownor or Woodhelvinin, and nothing suggests that. (Or the opposite to be sure, but...) Their prowess and ability are a result of environment. Not birth.
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And as for life-spans, what indication is there that they lived for long? Sure, the BloodGuard were effectively immortal, but that was because of the vow. Bannor was already looking old by TPTP.
The only way that they could be a different species would be if they were unable to breed with a Stonedownor or Woodhelvinin, and nothing suggests that. (Or the opposite to be sure, but...) Their prowess and ability are a result of environment. Not birth.
--A
The clearest indication about their lifespans was in Runes - I don't have a copy handy, but
Can anyone verify this with some text?
Spoiler
when Linden recovers her health sense from Kevin's dirt, she takes a good look at both Liand and Stave to try and determine whether she can trust them. I'm pretty sure it's in this passage that she perceives that Liand, as a Stonedownor, wouldn't live as long despite being healthy.
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Are you sure?...look at Star Trek where you get all sorts of interbreeding between humans, klingons, romulans etc! OK, different series, but the interbreeding principle is obviously accepted in many fictional circles...The only way that they could be a different species would be if they were unable to breed with a Stonedownor or Woodhelvinin, and nothing suggests that.
Some intriguing points of view here! What about the Ranyhyn though?
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Isn't the definition of species that 2 individuals can mate and produce fertile offspring? If that is the case then there is no reason any Haruchai/anyone else mating wouldn't result in children though these children won't necessarily be able to reproduce themselves and may have other problems
Spoiler
as we know Esmer has plenty of problems
It's all speculation, but I suppose you have a point. And another point to strengthen your own could be that human life expectancy varies from under 40 to over 80 in various parts of the world...so the Haruchai, if they only live twice as long as we do, could still be considered human.
Mayhap their dieticians totally kick ass!
Mayhap their dieticians totally kick ass!
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Haruchai are human.
Their environment has given them an attitude. Suffice. Distrust lore. Contain emotions. Their environment and their attitude have given them physical characterisrics - strength, endurance, tenacity.
All idiosyncratic phenomenon seen with Haruchai are usually related to being more human, more like us, rather than less. Tull's emotion. Bannor's humility. Cail's and Brinn's seduction. Brinn's ambition. Cail's desire.
Donaldson made them heroic, and made their heroism usual, for a specific purpose. He wanted Covenant to be in a Land of heroes.
Their environment has given them an attitude. Suffice. Distrust lore. Contain emotions. Their environment and their attitude have given them physical characterisrics - strength, endurance, tenacity.
All idiosyncratic phenomenon seen with Haruchai are usually related to being more human, more like us, rather than less. Tull's emotion. Bannor's humility. Cail's and Brinn's seduction. Brinn's ambition. Cail's desire.
Donaldson made them heroic, and made their heroism usual, for a specific purpose. He wanted Covenant to be in a Land of heroes.
It would defeat the purpose if the Haruchai were not human, if their efforts were inate rather than heroic.In 'Epic Fantasy in the Modern World: A Few Observations', Donaldson wrote:I wanted to bring the epic back into contact with the real world, I chose the technical device of reversing Tennyson's method. He took one epic character, Arthur, and surrounded him with "real," "modern" human beings. I took one real, modern human being, Thomas Covenant, and surrounded him with epic characters: the Giants, the Bloodguard, Lord Mhoram, the Ranyhyn, the jheherrin: characters or images which don't in any way pertain to our real experience of life, but which do pertain to the part of us which dreams, the part of us which imagines, the part of us which aspires. And in Covenant's case those characters or images do seduce him - away from cynicism and bitterness and hatred; toward love, friendship, and loyalty, toward the willingness to risk himself for things larger than he is.
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....perhaps the telepathy was an evolution thingy - if you were to go around shouting in the mountains (specially in winter) you are inviting an avalanche to come down on you, hence the more 'quiet' way of conversing...also living in high altitudes would increase heart & lung capacity (athletes doing altitude training!) which would increase stamina & possibly strength.....
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I took a look at Runes before I had to be going, but I think there is no support for Haruchai living particularly long in absence of the Vow.
No quote, since I don't have Runes with me right now...
I've said earlier that I think Haruchai to be the human Ranyhyn. Are they human? Maybe. Are the Ranyhyn horses? It's all a matter of definitions.
I think the Haruchai are humans with an innate connection to Earthpower that allows them to do things like swear the famous Vow and routinely exceed mortal limits of physical prowess in addition to telepathy. A normal human of the Land cannot hope to equal them, and when a Giant tried in the Second Chronicles he just couldn't keep up.
Spoiler
The passage compared Liand and Anele.
I've said earlier that I think Haruchai to be the human Ranyhyn. Are they human? Maybe. Are the Ranyhyn horses? It's all a matter of definitions.
I think the Haruchai are humans with an innate connection to Earthpower that allows them to do things like swear the famous Vow and routinely exceed mortal limits of physical prowess in addition to telepathy. A normal human of the Land cannot hope to equal them, and when a Giant tried in the Second Chronicles he just couldn't keep up.
Spoiler
I think in the Last Chronicles the Earthpower-forbidding Haruchai are going to learn the hard way just how much they have really depended on Earthpower all along.
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I just bumped my ooooold thread about Haruchai character/abilities.
Of course, how they got to be the way they are doesn't answer the question of whether or not they were ever normal humans. Was there originally one race of humans, and some grew to be Giants, while others became Haruchai?
Of course, how they got to be the way they are doesn't answer the question of whether or not they were ever normal humans. Was there originally one race of humans, and some grew to be Giants, while others became Haruchai?
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Good post WayFriend. Think the Giants are a different species Fist.
The Haruchai though, as WayFriend said, are products of their environments, just as we are.
(Not that it's unheard of in various societies and cultures here on earth either.)
--A
The Haruchai though, as WayFriend said, are products of their environments, just as we are.
I agree with the first Bongani, clearly. But I don't remember that bit about letting the weak die. Got a quote?Bongani wrote:I'll go with them being a race of man who through natural selection acquired the abilitities they now have.
One must wonder though why they chose to let their weak die rather than do as other humans and wear animal furs for warmth.
(Not that it's unheard of in various societies and cultures here on earth either.)
--A
I too don't remember that, but that being said. . .Bongani wrote:One must wonder though why they chose to let their weak die rather than do as other humans and wear animal furs for warmth.
Make one member of the pack weak and the entire pack is weakened. . . not putting on clothes would be just one way of keeping the group, as a whole, strong.
Just like their testing (as seen in Gilden Fire) is a way of keeping strong.