Demondim Motivations

[Nerdanel]

I've been wondering about the Demondim, those scary undeads that appear out of nowhere to attack our heroes. What makes the Demondim tick? I can't say I have figured that out, but I have come up with several possibilities, which I shall present in no particular order.

Why didn't the Demondim escape the Ritual of Desecration?
- They were betrayed by Lord Foul.
- They were betrayed by the ur-viles.
- They chose to die.

How did Esmer get the Demondim from the past?
- He offered to aid them and they accepted.
- He dumped a caesure on them.

Why are the Demondim after Linden and her companions?
- They want the white gold.
- They are interested in the Staff of Law, for the same reasons as the ur-viles.
- They are disoriented, angry, and blame Linden.
- Esmer made a deal with them.
- They have a grudge against the ur-viles and the Waynhim.
- They have a grudge against anyone who looks like a Lord.
- They know that the secret plan of the ur-viles is a really bad idea and must be stopped.
- They think Linden is a servant of Lord Foul.
- They are obeying Lord Foul's orders.
- They have been corrupted by the Illearth Stone and feel like killing.

Why are the supposedly-intelligent Demondim using such simple head-on tactics?
- They are so powerful that they haven't needed strategy yet.
- That tight group is their version of the classic wedge and allows them to share the power of the Illearth Stone.
- They have been corrupted by the Illearth Stone and just feel like killing.
- Their tactics aren't that simple; the Mahdoubt is one of them and has subverted the entire Revelstone.
- Lord Foul thinks these tactics are a good idea.

Why did the Demondim pause in their attack?
- Lord Foul ordered it because Covenant and Jeremiah were late.
- Kastenessen suggested it.
- They wanted to attack when they were fresh.
- They sensed Covenant's arrival and wanted to investigate that first.
- They waited for a report by the Mahdoubt.
- They sent the Mahdoubt to the past.
- They thought Revelstone was full of Lords and prepared something especially destructive.

What do the Demondim have in common with Kastenessen?
- They serve Lord Foul.
- They oppose Lord Foul, or think they do.
- They are interested in an alliance with someone who's not Linden.
- They like to have a chat now and then.

We know that if Linden had left the Waynhim alone, the Demondim would have killed them - except if the warning was a clever ruse by Esmer and the "contrive their salvation" part would have been fulfilled if Linden had just left the Waynhim alone.

It is also noteworthy that by following Linden the Demondim are now about to fulfill Esmer's wish of getting back at the Masters. (And Stave's wish to get back to Revelstone has made that possible, possibly with Linden subconscious desire to get to Jeremiah.)

I wonder if the Ravers were originally Demondim who were corrupted by the Illearth Stone or something to that effect. There are some uncanny resemblances, but the timeline is tricky.

[Xar]

Your idea about the Ravers is intriguing, but have you considered the possible alternative? We don't know exactly for how long the Viles had existed on the Land before "recorded history", and we don't know when the Demondim first appeared in the Land either, if I recall correctly; could it be the other way around - that the Viles "studied" the Ravers and bestowed upon their creations - the Demondim - the capacity to "possess" physical bodies?
After all, thus far we have no solid evidence that the Demondim can act as individuals: they always stand in a group, they move and act together, and even channel the Illearth Stone power together (we can't be sure whether the Mahdoubt is a Demondim, so we cannot include her as proof). It seems that individuality is not their strong point (and it might even make sense, given that they have no physical bodies in their natural form, and physical bodies are what gives us a sense of individual identity). So, how did the Ravers achieve their individuality?
And of course, there's also the matter about the "history" of the Ravers - the three brothers of a single birth - and their particular hate for the vegetal kingdom, which seems to be inconsistent with the Demondim in particular, but above all, would make little sense if the Ravers had been corrupted by the Illearth Stone, because if they had been so corrupted, they would likely have attempted to destroy anything, not just trees

It's also interesting to notice that the Ravers - as far as we know - can only animate living bodies, while the Demondim - again, as far as we know - seem to be able to only animate dead bodies. I would surmise that, if the origins of the Demondim and the Ravers are linked, this difference would be quite interesting.

If the Demondim "design" was based by the Viles upon the Ravers, perhaps the Viles were only able to replicate the possession ability imperfectly - maybe the Demondim were not able to possess a living body and displace its original spirit, but in exchange they had power enough to animate dead bodies (which had no spirit within to contend with).

If the Ravers were Stone-corrupted Demondim, then perhaps the Illearth Stone - with its penchant for twisting living things - twisted their possession ability to only work on living creatures.

Hmm, this sounds interesting...

[Avatar]

But the stone was a bane buried deep in the earth during it's making, and only discovered by the cavewights delving beneath Graven Threndor.

How could it have corrupted the Deomondim into Ravers?

--A

[Nerdanel]

In the Raver-Demondim theory the timeline is the biggest stumbling block. Were the Demondim really created that early, particularly if it means that the Viles were already hating themselves at the time?

But there are several eerie connections. Remember how the dead Yerquin's damaged corpse is possessed by Herem in Message to Revelstone. Perhaps the difference in possessing the living and the dead is nothing more than having the strength to subdue the spirit already in the body. And the Ravers seem to be capable of some sort of mental connection. Herem and Jehannum in the Colossus chapter certainly act like one spirit in two bodies.

They were laughing at him together. Beat for beat, their ridicule came as one, matched each other in weird consonance; they sounded like one voice jeering through two throats.

"Our friend Triock spoke the truth," they said together, and the unharmonized unison of their voices mocked both Covenant and Triock. [...] "We are turiya and moksha, Herem and Jehannum. We have come to take delight in the ruin of things we hate."

In addition all the Demondim-spawn seem to be very communal creatures while still having individual identities. Waynhim names seem to be very similar in format to the uncapitalized-and-italicized set of Raver names, and I would assume ur-vile and even Demondim names would likely follow the same pattern of descriptive Sanskrit words chosen by the bearer for themselves.

There is also the matter of the burning acid touch. It is one of the defining features of the Demondim, but the Ravers also have it. There are several passages that make a mention of it. Sunder's mother got third-degree burns because of it.

[KAY1]

I think the Ravers were just people who happened to hate, perhaps because of something that happened to them before. This was thousands and thousands of years ago so they may have come from a primitive people who were very violent anyway and these were the worst of them. When they wandered into Foul's clutches it didnt' take much effort to transform them into the bodiless vicious spirits we know and ahem love.

As for the burning touch, that could just be the sign of evil. Didn't Covenant's face swell up badley when Foul slapped him in TPTP?

[Xar]

In the Raver-Demondim theory the timeline is the biggest stumbling block. Were the Demondim really created that early, particularly if it means that the Viles were already hating themselves at the time?

I agree, that's the biggest problem with the theory... because for the Ravers to be twisted Demondim, the Demondim need to have been spawned even earlier; whereas we have no mention of Foul's activities before that time, and therefore we cannot be sure that the Viles already loathed themselves before that. The opposite theory, in comparison, removes the stumbling block, because the Ravers could have had a totally different origin (perhaps similar to the one in the stories, maybe they were human beings whose spirits were so filled with rage, despite and scorn as to endure after the death of their physical bodies, maybe they were utterly spiritual entities from the beginning), and could have existed for an uncounted number of years while the Viles thrived; then, when Foul taught the Viles to loathe themselves, they could have looked at the Ravers (did they already know of the Ravers' existence? Did they study them?) and used them as models for their new spawn, the Demondim.
From a timeline point of view, this sounds more plausible. What do you think?

But there are several eerie connections. Remember how the dead Yerquin's damaged corpse is possessed by Herem in Message to Revelstone. Perhaps the difference in possessing the living and the dead is nothing more than having the strength to subdue the spirit already in the body.

I agree with you, but there is one strange concept we need to address: possessing a living body requires strength to subdue the original soul, but at least the body is living and animated by itself. Possessing a dead body, while not requiring you to expend strength to subdue the spirit (because there is no spirit in it) requires you to exert your strength to animate the dead body. Whether the animation is pseudo-physical (re-activation of the physical components of the body, like muscles and heart) or mystical (animation of the body through the use of mystical energy or willpower), I presume that it requires the animating spirit to expend strength in any case.
So, both the possession of the living and the possession of the dead require strength; they do, however, require different strengths and offer different challenges. Perhaps the Viles gave their Demondim the ability to possess dead - soulless - bodies because this would be less likely to make them loathe themselves (as compared to the thought of being a parasite that has occupied a living body and displaced its original owner), or simply because dead bodies were more readily available to them.

And the Ravers seem to be capable of some sort of mental connection. Herem and Jehannum in the Colossus chapter certainly act like one spirit in two bodies.

They were laughing at him together. Beat for beat, their ridicule came as one, matched each other in weird consonance; they sounded like one voice jeering through two throats.

"Our friend Triock spoke the truth," they said together, and the unharmonized unison of their voices mocked both Covenant and Triock. [...] "We are turiya and moksha, Herem and Jehannum. We have come to take delight in the ruin of things we hate."

Yes, the Ravers seem to have a communal identity and an individual identity. Still, this, unfortunately, does not prove anything in one sense or the other: if we assume that communal identity is a natural consequence of being disembodied whereas individual identity is a natural consequence of having a physical body, it follows that disembodied entities capable of possessing physical bodies would develop both. But this is true regardless of whether the Ravers came before or after the Demondim: it is a natural consequence of their state. Since the Ravers and the Demondim are similar in this respect (disembodied, possessing spirits) it is likely their concepts of communal and individual identity would be similar too. Although - thus far, we have not had any solid evidence of Demondim individual identity.

In addition all the Demondim-spawn seem to be very communal creatures while still having individual identities. Waynhim names seem to be very similar in format to the uncapitalized-and-italicized set of Raver names, and I would assume ur-vile and even Demondim names would likely follow the same pattern of descriptive Sanskrit words chosen by the bearer for themselves.

I would even assume that Viles and Demondim didn't have names at all; a name is the sign of individual identity, and if the Viles were bodiless spirits, they likely had none. Perhaps the Demondim had some - like the Ravers, let's say - but until we see Demondim acting in an individual manner, we can't say.

There is also the matter of the burning acid touch. It is one of the defining features of the Demondim, but the Ravers also have it. There are several passages that make a mention of it. Sunder's mother got third-degree burns because of it.

[/quote]

Actually, the Ravers don't have a burning acid touch, they have a burning touch. That is, the Demondim use acid, whereas the Ravers use fire. In the case of the Ravers, it makes sense that they use fire, given their relationship with the vegetal kingdom - they have become its physical nemeses, and bear within them the threat of fire. It seems, instead, that the Demondim and the ur-viles (and possibly the Viles?) have an affinity for acid. It's an interesting distinction. But, if it is true that the Ravers' fire touch makes sense in view of their origins and their hate of the One Forest, what is the origin of the Demondim's affinity with acid? Is it because of the pollution in Mount Thunder, or is it instead because - if the Demondim were creations inspired by the Raver model - the Viles attempted to replicate the Ravers' burning touch and used acid instead of fire?

[Avatar]

The opposite theory, in comparison, removes the stumbling block, because the Ravers could have had a totally different origin (perhaps similar to the one in the stories, maybe they were human beings whose spirits were so filled with rage, despite and scorn as to endure after the death of their physical bodies, maybe they were utterly spiritual entities from the beginning), and could have existed for an uncounted number of years while the Viles thrived; then, when Foul taught the Viles to loathe themselves, they could have looked at the Ravers (did they already know of the Ravers' existence? Did they study them?) and used them as models for their new spawn, the Demondim.
From a timeline point of view, this sounds more plausible. What do you think?

Agreed.

--A

[KAY1]

Perhaps we will find out more about the Ravers in the Last Chrons. Obviously we are one down after Nom did his thing, but the other 2 must be lurking about somewhere. I am sure though that in the 1st chrons we found out from Mhoram that the brothers had wandered within reach of Foul and it was he who turned them into his faithful servants and made them the posessing spirits (not sure about the last bit though).

[KAY1]

In the Raver-Demondim theory the timeline is the biggest stumbling block. Were the Demondim really created that early, particularly if it means that the Viles were already hating themselves at the time?

Did Atiaran not say that the Viles were a 'high and lofty race' and then mentioned a timeline such as 'in the time of Berek'? We know that the brothers were around in the time before Berek discovered the Earthpower and had probably been around for quite a while before that, so it seems the Ravers did indeed pre-date the Viles self-loathing.

We also know that Loric 'silenced' the Viles with the Krill (where is the Krill by the way, was it mentioned in Runes?) so their peril wasn't known fully for some time.

[Xar]

In any case, this seems to be an interesting topic and I'm curious to see what SRD would say about it... so I submitted the question to the GI.

[KAY1]

There is actually a thread in this forum which discusses he origins of Ravers and it reminded me that they originated in the spoiled plains kind of area and were forbidden from the upper land by the colossus, until men had cut away so much the colossus was weakened. With regards to the acid/burning, the Skest in the Sarangrave were made of acid - any connection. Also someone speculated that perhaps the ravers were the offspring of the Lurker, which kind of makes sense. after all the Merewives came about because of the way the human woman was affected by Kastenessen so maybe either the Ravers' mother was driven to despair by the corruption of her sons or she was corrupted by the changes wrought in the plains by Foul/the Demondim breeding.

[Xar]

Unfortunately, we know nothing of what beings lived in the spoiled plains and in the area of the Sarangrave prior to the pollution brought about by the breeding pits in Mt. Thunder; therefore, we do not know the origins of the Ravers. The Elohim knew of them, and the Colossus was an Appointed; but if I recall correctly, even the Elohim did not know - or chose not to say - where the Ravers came from. So, if the Ravers as models for the Demondim theory is correct, we still need to find out how the Ravers came to be.

I also find it interesting that the whole "genealogy" of the Viles seemed to tend more and more from spirit to matter - from spirit to structure. Consider:

Viles (disembodied entities, probably spiritual)
|
Demondim (disembodied entities, need to possess physical hosts)
|
Ur-viles and Waynhim (fully corporeal entities)
|
Vain (pure structure)

[Nerdanel]

On the Illearth Stone, I've been thinking that perhaps it has been in the action before Drool Rockworm unearthed it. We know that its name was known, at least. The New Lords said to Covenant that Foul didn't have the Illearth Stone in his wars against Kevin, but they might have been wrong again, or the Illearth Stone was in truth held by the Demondim. Kevin would have then buried the Stone under a very large amount of lava in the Ritual of Desecration, or perhaps the Stone was buried all the time and the Demondim had used caesures from the start.

Anyway, when the Demondim appear they certainly appear familiar with how to use the Illearth Stone. I think they can't have learned that in a moment.

His cheek stung with a deep pain like vitriol that made his eyes stream.

Pain like acid burned through his sore skull.

Clad in cerements and rot, the Demondim arose from the graves of the fallen, and their touch was fire.

The two first were about Ravers. Raver touch and Demondim touch doesn't sound like a simple fire/acid divide. (Lord Foul's touch was poisonous, which is different.)

But by no means I am convinced that Ravers are Demondim. The similarities are big but the problems are not insignificant. But if as the text suggests, the Viles' self-loathing was expressed in a desire to create something cleaner than themselves, one wonders about why they would emulate Ravers? Perhaps they thought that possessing people who no longer needed their bodies would make it all right. Perhaps the Ravers were Viles who had gained new powers from buried banes although one would wonder why they don't seem to be able to do anything without their bodies, which I guess makes this idea impossible.

[Avatar]

On the Illearth Stone, I've been thinking that perhaps it has been in the action before Drool Rockworm unearthed it. We know that its name was known, at least. The New Lords said to Covenant that Foul didn't have the Illearth Stone in his wars against Kevin, but they might have been wrong again, or the Illearth Stone was in truth held by the Demondim. Kevin would have then buried the Stone under a very large amount of lava in the Ritual of Desecration, or perhaps the Stone was buried all the time and the Demondim had used caesures from the start.

Anyway, when the Demondim appear they certainly appear familiar with how to use the Illearth Stone. I think they can't have learned that in a moment.

Familiar by what standards? It's not like we know how the Stone is used anyway. And personally, I think that the Lords knew of the stone the same way they knew of the white gold, by legend passed down. If the Demondim had always had access to the stone, or to ceasures, I think that the history of the land would have been quite different.

And IIRC, LFB is quite clear on the fact that Drool uncovered a bane that had been hidden in the earth since creation, one of the banes cast down into the Earth in the very beginning. *shrug* Maybe I'm wrong...

--A

[Nerdanel]

I've been trying to write a fanfic about High Lord Kevin, but new complications have kept adding themselves to what I originally thought was going to be a fairly straight-forward story. For one thing, LFB knowledge about Kevin contains contradictions and obviously isn't completely accurate. I've been trying to piece together what really happened, or plausibly could have.

Then, through the Despiser's plotting, a message came to the Council of Lords from the Demondim in Mount Thunder. The message asked the Lords to come to the Demondim loreworks, the spawning crypts where the ur-viles were made, to meet with the loremasters, who claimed knowledge of a secret power.

My guess is that the secret power in question was the Illearth Stone, and the war started when it did because of that discovery. I even if the Illearth Stone was easy to use, the Demondim would have needed more than a few hours to master it properly, which would have meant that they started before the Desecration or that Esmer arranged them a training session at some point in spacetime...

[Avatar]

...or that Esmer arranged them a training session at some point in spacetime...

My very rebuttal. With caesures in effect, they could have just been given access to it, and still had a very long time to learn how to use it.

--A

[Xar]

Still, it is possible that while the Illearth Stone was buried until Drool found it, its power was not. That is, we know that it wasn't necessary to actually touch the Stone to draw on its power - Foul doesn't touch the Stone to access it, if I recall correctly, and it could be argued that the Giant-Ravers, as well as the Woodhelvenin in the SC, would need pyhsical contact with the Stone shards because they, in turn, were imperfect channels for the Stone's power.

As we saw, the Demondim can tap into the power of the I.S. without touching it, and from a time in which it was still buried. Sure, caesures touch all points in time, but still, this is definite proof that you don't need to touch the Stone to evoke its power. And the Stone was known through legend.
Now, since I don't think that Drool simply started digging randomly for the Stone, it must also have been known where the Stone itself lay - even if just roughly ("it's buried in the north-eastern roots of Mt. Thunder", for example). This means that, potentially, the Viles and/or the Demondim, being not wholly corporeal, could have even pinpointed its location (could Viles pass through solid rock? Could the Demondim in their spiritual form?) and found a way to access its power at a distance. Perhaps it was the Illearth Stone itself that allowed them to start their breeding pits - or that led them into doing it. In any case, I think that, even if you don't need to touch the Stone, you can't access its power at any distance; you must remain reasonably close. So, it is likely that the Viles and the Demondim, if they had been able to find and use the Stone, could only draw on its power within Mt. Thunder. And - of course - if this theory is correct, both Demondim and (perhaps) Viles would have had a long time in which to learn how to use it.

Perhaps the Viles discovered the Stone, but did not use it until they learned self-loathing? Or perhaps they didn't use it at all but passed on the knowledge to the Demondim, who decided to make use of it (maybe after the Viles were silenced)?

[High Lord Tolkien]

Then, through the Despiser's plotting, a message came to the Council of Lords from the Demondim in Mount Thunder. The message asked the Lords to come to the Demondim loreworks, the spawning crypts where the ur-viles were made, to meet with the loremasters, who claimed knowledge of a secret power.

My guess is that the secret power in question was the Illearth Stone, and the war started when it did because of that discovery.

Wow.
I never put it together like that.
OUTSTANDING!
I hope it works out like that because it makes the most sense.

[Nerdanel]

I remembered this quote and had to dig it up to check if it supported or demolished my Raver/Demondim argument. I think it supports it.

It was samadhi, now named Sheol, who mastered the heart of Berek's liege - Sheol who slaughtered the champions of the Land, and drove Berek, half-unhanded and alone, to his extremity on the slopes of Mount Thunder. It was turiya and moksha, Herem and Jehannum, who lured the powerful and austere Demondim to their breeding dens, and to the spawning of the ur-viles.

Of course, it doesn't SAY that Sheol was being the King while Herem and Jehannum were dealing with the Demondim, but that would be a reasonable conclusion. This would support a fairly early start for the Demondim, if they were working on the ur-viles already in Berek's time.

It would have been easier for Ravers to influence the Demondim if they were ones of them, but perhaps not absolutely necessary, if the Ravers were good at disguises. They might even have picked up the acid touch as a part of the disguise. The uncorrupted Demondim probably loathed the idea of not being able to touch a human without hurting them (the original "Don't touch me!"), but the Ravers would have loved the ability.

[dlbpharmd]

I'm trying to remember - did it say in Runes that Loric enlisted the aid of the Demondim against the Viles, or the ur-viles against the Demondim? Whatever the case may be, there was something about either the Viles or the Demondim that made them so powerful that Loric - presumably the most powerful Lord, and holder of the SoL - needed another weapon to fight them (the krill.) It makes sense that that power that Loric was against might have been the Illearth Stone.