Ascension

[Xar]

Re-reading the First Chronicles, I was struck by a thought: did anyone notice that, thus far, travelers from the "real world" whose summoning takes place upon their death (Covenant in the SC, Hile Troy in TIW) ultimately become integral parts of the Land's Earth? In a way, it is as if the character, being shut off from his original world by his death, is shunted off completely into the Land and takes on, or is granted, an ascension of sorts. Hile Troy becomes a Forestal - no, the last of the Forestals, keeper of Andelain, the last bastion of hope in the Second Chronicles; Covenant becomes the keeper of the Arch of Time and the incarnation of wild magic. In both cases, they died in the real world: Hile Troy presumably was either burned to death or fell from the ninth floor and plummeted to his death, whereas Covenant was stabbed in the heart.

SRD has said that the Land is a "larger" world than the "real world", so characters from the "real world" can expand in the Land, whereas characters from the Land can't shrink into the "real world". Does that mean that upon death, characters from the "real world" are gradually given a different depth of perception of the Land, or rather, that they expand in the Land to the point of becoming part of it?

Any thoughts on the matter? Of course,

Spoiler

this has implications for the FC, given that Linden - at least - is likely to die as well...

[Avatar]

Excellent question Xar. Can't say I'd ever thought of it, but it's an undeniable point. We might not have many cases as evidence, but the ones we have are pretty clear.


I'm not ready to speculate on the reasons yet, but the observation is obviously accurate.

--A

[Nerdanel]

I think there is truth to this. Also...

Spoiler

Roger is dead in the "real world". Imagine HIM ascended.

And this just might apply to Lytton too.

[danlo]

Spoiler

... ...

[I'm Murrin]

In the most literal sense, death in the "real world" for a character like Hile Troy, or Thomas Covenant, simply means that character can no longer return to his/her "real" life. But of course the implications go much farther (and are explored more fully in "The Last Chronicles"). Literal death in the Land as well is a significant possibility. But neither Troy nor Covenant actually died in the Land: rather they were transformed; became beings of an entirely different kind. In Troy's case, a series of transformations were involved, resulting in a new Forestal. In Covenant's case, the destruction of his mortality freed his spirit to support the Arch of Time (the fact that he retains some form of sentient identity is demonstrated by his ability to speak to Linden during her translation back to her "real" life). In both cases, huge powers were required to cause transformation instead of literal death. So: literal death in the "real world" does not *necessarily* impose extinction in the Land. In the "real world," Troy's body suffered literal death not long after his accident.

(11/21/2004)

[matrixman]

Ack. I've been avoiding the Runes forum and I'm afraid I'm going to avoid the rest of this thread. All this speculation on the Last Chrons is seriously going to confuse me or burn me out before I even get the chance to read the actual books. No offense to all the creative minds here, but I wish to save my energies for reading Stephen Donaldson's Last Chronicles, not reading the Watchers' Last Chronicles.

[Xar]

Aww, but the Watchers Last Chronicles are so interesting as well!

[Avatar]

I think this thread should maybe go to the Runes forum anyway. Mods?

--A

[danlo]

OK misteryoucanhavemyjob--off it goes! Next time PM me instead of artificially running up your measley post count it's really not fair at all that you get to be awake while I'm asleep...

[wayfriend]

SRD has said that the Land is a "larger" world than the "real world", so characters from the "real world" can expand in the Land, whereas characters from the Land can't shrink into the "real world". Does that mean that upon death, characters from the "real world" are gradually given a different depth of perception of the Land, or rather, that they expand in the Land to the point of becoming part of it?

You are definitely correct.

My answer is actually simplistic. Our reality keeps people small; when they are disconnected, they are free to become larger in the Land.

Of course, that's not a complete answer. It doesn't explain why they become larger than everything else in the Land, why they seem to become resident superheroes.

Do we need to have more of an explanation than a literary one? That authors choose to make protagonists heroes?

Covenant is an exception, no matter how you look at it. He is the white gold, all else follows from that. Somehow, in the Creator's choice, the Land and Covenant became related before Covenant ever arrived.

If you consider Covenant's case as an exception, and Hile Troy's case as simply a protagonist ending his life on a heroic note, then there may not be as much of a trend as we might imagine.

[Nerdanel]

There is a quote somewhere about some of the Unfettered Ones becoming Forestals. So what happened to Hile Troy wasn't that unprecedented.

However, there is the angle that the people from the "real world" tend to find themselves with new abilities that aren't that common even in the Land. Covenant was a white gold wielder, a seer, AND a prophet. In addition to his skills as a general, Troy had the ability to see without eyes. Linden was the health-sense champion and a Sun-Sage, even though she doesn't seem to be that any more.

Being a seer and a prophet is really rare. Berek was one and so was Covenant. I think Lord Foul is another. I've been thinking that Anele might be yet another, but that's about it.

I got the impression that Hile Troy's sight was unprecedented to the New Lords. Kevin had probably had something like it before, though, and Anele shows a distinct lack of bumping into walls. Various eyeless critters like ur-viles and Sandgorgons are also able to get along without eyes. Ur-viles have their sense of smell, but the heads of Sandgorgons are featureless and they clearly depend on extrasensory perception.

I think SRD in the GI said at one point that Linden had probably the strongest health-sense ever. Being a Sun-Sage wasn't unique (Hollian was another), but I get the impression that it wasn't that common. The Wounded Land has a scene where on Dawn One Linden sees the Sunbane weakening. On Dawn Two the Haruchai see it also. Covenant, Sunder, and Hollian don't see the weakening until Dawn Three. But in Runes people like Stave and Anele clearly have better health-sense than Linden.

I think Anele is a very interesting character who will surely be important in the story. A particularly interesting factor is how his manner of speech is reminescent of Tolkien's Gollum, complete with multiple personalities... or the Mahdoubt. Do Anele and the Mahdoubt have something in common?