Was the fact that Joan chose the rings significant?

[KAY1]

Again, sorry if someone has already covered this. I'm not sure if this should even be in this thread or in Runes, but does the fact that Joan was the one who wanted the white gold rings have any significance?

Spoiler

obviously we know in Runes she is also a white gold wielder and can affect the Land with the Wild Magic

In LFB Covenant says that the only reason he had the white gold wedding ring was because Joan preferred it to yellow gold. Does this make his connection to it any less because it wasn't his choice, or more, because of the same fact? Does this mean he is free because he did not choose the white gold?

Spoiler

Does that mean Joan i Runes is not free and can therefore no t break the Arch because she did choose the rings?

[Loredoctor]

What a great post! Interesting points.

[Avatar]

But perhaps better suited to the Runes forum? *shrug*

--A

[KAY1]

yeah you may be right I wasnt too sure when I posted it.

Where is the miraculous post mover?

[Avatar]

Only the mods of the specific forum (or an admin) can move it, if they deem it necessary.

One will be along soon enough, so don't worry about it.

--A

[Loredoctor]

Shhh! I hear some great and mighty presence approaching! Is it danlo?

[Nerdanel]

I've always taken the passage the way that there is nothing to it but characterization. Joan chooses white gold rings and white gold they are. Joan calls their child Roger and Roger he is. Joan orders Covenant to start writing his next novel NOW and write he does.

Joan was obviously the dominant partner in the marriage. She gives me the impression of a strong but brittle type while Covenant proved far more able to withstand adversity and was ultimately far more stubborn than Joan.

I think the books would have ended very differently if Lord Foul had had the foresight to act friendly to Covenant instead of intimidating him. As Joan demonstrated, Covenant could be very accommodating if he was handled correctly i.e. the exact opposite of how Lord Foul did it.

[Xar]

Definitely: apparently, Joan seemed to consider Covenant and her marriage as a personal project of hers, which should go according to plans. Perhaps, this is one of the reasons why she divorced upon discovering Covenant's leprosy: she couldn't stand the thought that her personal project was flawed. Of course, I'm not saying it's the main reason: it might just be one of those that led her to leaving Covenant. On the other hand, Covenant shows himself to be a person capable of being moved by beauty and by love; it is likely that he accepted all of Joan's impositions because he just enjoyed seeing her happy.

I agree with you about the path Foul should have taken; then again, after millennia imprisoned in the Land, it is likely Foul didn't have in him anything but contempt and despite for all living beings, so it is quite possible that he would have been completely incapable of acting friendly (like he used to do with Kevin, instead), especially in front of the one thing that could free him from his prison. Just like he doesn't seem to be thinking clearly at the end of WGW, so it is possible that, when Covenant first was summoned and he brought him to Kevin's Watch, Foul was so eager to get started and to get the white gold ring that Covenant was wearing, that he didn't realize he was alienating Covenant more than he was making him an ally.

[KAY1]

Ah Danlo is the man is he? Come on come on!

I think Foul realised his mistake very early on as when he first met Covenant and was ridiculing him, it made covenant resentful and determined not to be treated as a 'groveller'. Foul then tried to change his tactic but it was a little late by then.

[Loredoctor]

I agree with you about the path Foul should have taken; then again, after millennia imprisoned in the Land, it is likely Foul didn't have in him anything but contempt and despite for all living beings, so it is quite possible that he would have been completely incapable of acting friendly (like he used to do with Kevin, instead), especially in front of the one thing that could free him from his prison. Just like he doesn't seem to be thinking clearly at the end of WGW, so it is possible that, when Covenant first was summoned and he brought him to Kevin's Watch, Foul was so eager to get started and to get the white gold ring that Covenant was wearing, that he didn't realize he was alienating Covenant more than he was making him an ally.

Possibly, and at the risk of going off topic, the Despiser is that good at manipulation that the only thing that could save the Land was TC's unbelief. Being nice would have probably just made TC less malleable.

[KAY1]

Thanks for moving this!

Joan is kind of a Creator/Despiser all in one. She wanted her creation (the marriage and all that came with it) to be perfect and when it turned out it was flawed (the leprosy) she walked out (as opposed to the actual Creator who metaphorically did the same thing by sealing the Arch and preventing any further direct contact with his creation).

Joan then surrendered to Despite in the 2nd chronicles and in the Last chrons appears to have completely become a Despiser.

So does this mean that Linden/Covenant could be the new (if those theories are correct) Creator and Joan the Despiser?

Lord Foul and the Creator are not so different in some ways as they both require perfection. The creator required his world to be flawless and Foul tried to create beings which were perfect (casting aside failures such as the jheherrin)

Come to think of it there is a lot of perfection requirements floating around the chronicles.

We have already mentioned Joan, the Despiser and the Creator.

We also have the Demondim, Viles etc who require perfection. Then as mentioned by Lord Mhorham, the Bloodguard and Covenant both require absolute answers, which could be a interpreted as 'flawless'. Not to mention that Bloodguard's extremely high standards anyway which may as well be perfection.

The Elohim believe they are perfect.

Even the Lords required absolute answers. They required that they stick to the Oath of Peace absolutely.

Perhaps if all these people could just accept that nothing is perfect they would save themselves a whole lot of grief.

I think Covenant accepting this finally led to him to his defeats of the despiser.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Maybe the whole 3 series are a dream in *Joan's* mind.
She's the only character to be present in all three Chronicles.
Most of the Land in the 1st Chrons seems like a reflection of her likes: horses, nature, health...
In the 2nd Chron the Land is a reflection of her mental state too: madness.
The 3rd could be as well.

(I'm just throwing this out there in case it comes true so I can get credit for being a genius!)

[wayfriend]

I wouldn't make to much of Joan choosing the white gold.

The white gold is significant to Covenant because of it's meaning. The fact that Joan chose it goes towards why it is significant to Covenant. But I don't think has any effect on what Covenant can do with his power.

Furthermore, Covenant exercised choice by agreeing to his wife's request.

I don't understand anyone identifying Joan with the Despiser. Joan is the Despiser's victim. An apt victim; a crushed victim; a useful victim. But she's a victim of despite, not a despiser. Even as Runes ends, her actions are driven by a Raver's torment. (That she has past actions that give the Raver fodder to feed his control over her isn't the same as cooperation.)

[Xar]

In fact, in the SC, Joan clearly shows that, when she is in possession of her mental faculties, she is deeply hurt by what she is forced to do; remember what happens when Linden first sees Joan licking Covenant's blood from her fingers, at the beginning of the SC, and subsequently returns to lucidity. She's not the Despiser - she is a victim of despite, albeit it can be argued that she almost deliberately sought out despite by turning her back on her husband in his time of need, thereby precipitating her distress and mounting sense of guilt to the point when her feeling of having abandoned Covenant when he needed her the most opened the door for Foul to use her as a tool. For this same reason, Joan cannot unleash enough power to break the Arch; it is likely that the reasons why she is in the Land are to upset (or unbalance) Covenant, and to weaken the Law of Time so that it will be easier to break it.

Here's an interesting thought. What if Foul's purpose in having Joan in the Land, possessed by a Raver and creating caesures, were to weaken the Law of Time to the point that the amount of "free-willed" wild magic required to shatter it is negligible? Let's say that, during the SC, Covenant needed to unleash 100% of the power of wild magic to break the Arch or rouse the Worm; perhaps, if the Law of Time is weakened enough, a release of only 50% of that power would be enough to break the Arch. This might actually mean that the more the Law is weakened, the more dangerous will be for Linden (and/or Covenant, possibly) to use wild magic without endangering the Arch.