Demondim Motivations

[I'm Murrin]

Interesting idea. It would also serve to fill a blank or two: If the Illearth Stone had been buried under Mount Thunder since Foul placed banes in the Earth, how did the new Lords know of it? The knowledge must have come from the Old Lords, who must have encountered its power without it ever being removed from under the mountain.

[Xar]

I remembered this quote and had to dig it up to check if it supported or demolished my Raver/Demondim argument. I think it supports it.

It was samadhi, now named Sheol, who mastered the heart of Berek's liege - Sheol who slaughtered the champions of the Land, and drove Berek, half-unhanded and alone, to his extremity on the slopes of Mount Thunder. It was turiya and moksha, Herem and Jehannum, who lured the powerful and austere Demondim to their breeding dens, and to the spawning of the ur-viles.

Of course, it doesn't SAY that Sheol was being the King while Herem and Jehannum were dealing with the Demondim, but that would be a reasonable conclusion. This would support a fairly early start for the Demondim, if they were working on the ur-viles already in Berek's time.

It would have been easier for Ravers to influence the Demondim if they were ones of them, but perhaps not absolutely necessary, if the Ravers were good at disguises. They might even have picked up the acid touch as a part of the disguise. The uncorrupted Demondim probably loathed the idea of not being able to touch a human without hurting them (the original "Don't touch me!"), but the Ravers would have loved the ability.

Of course, the other possibility is simply that - if the Demondim were modeled on the Ravers rather than the other way around - the Demondim were simply completely ignorant of their relationship with the Ravers, and took them as brethren. We don't know how much of their lore did the Viles pass on to the Demondim; it is possible they didn't tell their progeny "we modeled you on these creatures of evil, the Ravers".

Hmm, what if discovering that they had been modeled by the Viles on the Ravers was one of the reasons that led the Demondim to loathe themselves in their turn?

[dlbpharmd]

I think this is the correct place to post this:

Pier Giorgio (Xar): Hello Steve! How are you?
We're currently having an interesting discussion on the Watch, in which it was postulated that the similarities between the Demondim and the Ravers - i.e. both sorts of creatures are essentially disembodied entities capable of possessing physical bodies, both sorts of creatures have a burning touch (although through different means), and both sorts of creatures appear to have a communal sense of identity in addition to an individual identity (at least in the case of the Ravers) - suggest a relationship between the two kinds of creatures.

It has been further postulated that: either the Ravers are twisted Demondim (perhaps changed by the Illearth Stone) or that the Demondim were "designed" by the Viles based upon a "study" of the Ravers. The former theory has at least a timeline issue, whereas the latter apparently has none; it is also intriguing to notice that while the Ravers possess living bodies (therefore needing strength to subdue the original spirit within the body, but not to animate the body), the Demondim possess dead bodies (therefore needing strength to animate, whether mystically or physically, the dead body, but not to deal with any "soul").

So, the question is, are we on to something? Or is it just withdrawal symptoms while we hunger for Fatal Revenant? *grins*

I hate to commit myself on subjects like this. But your speculations sure sound like "withdrawal symptoms" to me. <grin> Surely the "Covenant" books indicate SOMEwhere that the Ravers and the Demondim have separate etiologies. Not to mention distinct histories.

(04/05/2006)

[High Lord Tolkien]

Once again the speculation spoiler that is the GI rears it's ugly head.

[Avatar]

I like it. Thanks Dlb.

--A

[Xar]

Well, I figured it would be nice to get SRD's opinion on the craziness that goes around here sometimes Given that he doesn't visit often, there's just this way to get around it

[stonemaybe]

Bah! What would SRD know about it?

[Jerico]

Don't have the books with me, but I thought the Ravers were around with Berek (they possesed his King). then the Vile was around in Loric's time. I don't remember anthing saying that Vile's were around before then? I always related the Viles coming into the picture around the same time Foul did. Maybe they came about because of the Illearth Stone being under Mt Thunder, but we will only know if SRD gives us that back story, which I would like to see

[Peven]

why did the ur-viles creat Vain?

[dlbpharmd]

One of the main reasons I think was to thwart Foul's plans to destroy the Earth. I believe SRD said somewhere in the GI that they realized that by helping Foul they were bringing about their own destruction.

[Reave the Unjust]

I would have liked to have been at that meeting!
Wonder what the Ur-vile equivalent of "Doh!" was!

Ur-vile Loremaster: "Bark bark barkbark! Bark babark bark! Bark bark."
(So guys, you know this Foul guy we've been helping?)

Ur-vile wedge: "Bark! Babababark! Bark!"
(Get to the point, we want to go eat some Wraith-burgers!)

UL: "Bark bark bark. Bark! Bark."
(Well it seems the Sunbane was his idea.)

UW: "Bark BARK! Bark bark bababark!"
(What? You are s***ting us? Right?)

UL: "Bark, barkbark bark! Bark bark?"
(And er, how can I say this...Any of you play chess?)

UW: "Bark bark bark bark babark!"
(No)

UL: "Bark bark! Babark! Bark!"
(Does the word Pawns mean anything to you?)

UW: "BAAAAARRRRRKKK! Bark Bark! BAARRK!"
(Ur-vile expletives)

UL: "Bark bark. Bark babark bark bark barkbark!"
(I told you, remember what happened to those dumbass Cavewights!)

UW: "Bark Bark!"
(Any ideas what we do?)

UL: "bark..."
(Erm...)

Small Ur-vile at the back: "Bark bark! Bark. Bark. Bark bark...."
(Well, I've been working on a side-project...)

[Warmark]