God Help Us

[Holsety]

It's clear to me that no punishment is enough to deter maniacs and perverts from their obsessions.

I really think we need to say that no punishment has a reasonable enough success rate to be relied on, because this implies (to me) that no one can ever control their obsessions. It's a thin layer of difference, but I think it really needs to be made clear.

I'm pretty sure he meant it in a more psychological way.

Although...if you learn a lesson from it to live healthier/whatever, then maybe it has made you stronger in a sense...

--A

*Begin off topic*
Only if we admit a seperation between body and soul. There are numerous physical ailments which will undoubtedly make people weaker no matter how hard they strive to return to full strength. Moreover humans like Terri Schiavo would be stronger than most of us, being not technically dead.

Now, in admitting that you agree with this statement, are you agreeing with a soul that is a seperate entity which can rise above the schackles of the body? And thus admitting a sort of oversoul, like the one that Emerson believed in?
*End off topic*

I think I won't be met by a great deal of controversy when I say that someone will not necessarily build up enough emotional strength by the time they're 7 or 8 to be able to recover fully from being abused. Certainly not if the crime is brushed under the rug. If everyone arounds you ignores what you've had firsthand, brutal experience with, and you're still at the stage where you require attention and acknowledgement...I can see such a thing being strengthening, but also as being crippling. And that it isn't necessarily possible for everyone to find strength in it.

EDIT-More generally, everyone is unique and different, so it's an extreme stretch to say that anyone can recover from any emotional stress.

[Avatar]

A good point about the generality of the comment. But to address your other point, I certainly believe in a seperation of body and psyche. Calling it a soul for purposes of reference is fine, and yes, I often do, although not in the religious "life everlasting" type of sense.

Not sure what you mean by "oversoul" though? (I'm familiar only with some of Emerson's poetry...nothing else. )

--A

[Wyldewode]

Elucidating for Avatar. .

Rather, for Emerson, human beings participate in the monistic unity of creation (which he calls, for short, the Oversoul) that runs the same through planets, rocks, plants, animals, and the consciousness of humanity. This creator spiritus is larger and more inclusive than any particular incarnations, so that “the philosophy of six thousand years has not searched the chambers and magazines of the soul,” which could never be definitively mapped in any case, given the dialectics of consciousness.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversoul

[Avatar]

Thanks Lyr.

Hmmm....sort of like a Zen thing?

"Where is the Buddha?"
"The Buddha is the one in the hall."
"But the one in the hall is a statue, a piece of wood!"
"That is so."
"Then where is the Buddha?"
"The one in the hall."

If so, then I like the idea, and certainly we are all part of the biosphere/whatever, but it's not a matter of faith to me.

--A

[Holsety]

I think Lyr did a good job of clarifying it. It's been about a year since I read it, and I could have this wrong, but I believe that he believes the oversoul is the sort of perfect aspect of man which we all have, even if it gets "fogged over" by other things. And if I remember further he actually relates it to, or says it is, god or at least divine in nature, which is similar to what some people believe about god being everywhere and being manifest in everything.

I really just mentioned it because I think of Emerson writes that the Oversoul is ultimately everywhere (no matter what obscures it), so I saw it linked tenously to the "Doesn't kill you-->stronger" thing.

I should probably say right now that I'm not actually much of a fan of Emerson or Thoreau, I think they're kinda stuffy.

EDIT-That being said Thoreau did walk the walk.

[Wyldewode]

This is why I get so enraged and passionate about children,I was molested at a young age and the abuse stopped here.No,it doesn't have to continue,yes,I am blameless,I did nothing wrong.These actions in my past still haunt me to this day.

Like you, I was mistreated while a child. And it will always affect me, haunt me.

But - while there can be evil and horror in the world - there can also be love and laughter and beauty beyond measure. And we must always remember that, especially in the face of evil.

In this life we have a choice - free will if you wish to call it that. We can add to the horror or we can add to the beauty.

I have taken the root of the horror and turned it into beauty

My past abuse does not haunt me. If it did, then my abuser wins. No... it has made me stronger and compassionate. Also more aware of the world and my kids. I can take that pain from the past and let it hurt me or I can take that pain and think what I can do in this world to prevent others from feeling this pain or help them heal if they have felt that pain. I chose several years ago to do the latter. It's working great for me!

I have thought carefully about what the three of you have wrote, and I wanted to add something. I know it isn't exactly the same thing, but I was sexually assaulted by a friend of a friend at a party when I was 22. I wasn't nearly as innocent as a you three were as children, and though you would believe that I had more defenses available to me, I did what I thought I never would do--froze up. I have played that night over in my head hundreds of times, making different decisons, wishing I could go back and change things. I think over all that occurred that night, and wonder if I was flirting too much with this guy, or if I said something that was remotely provocative. In short, there is a part of me that tries to believe that it was my fault. . . even though I know better. In my mind (and usually my heart) I know that it wasn't my fault. And most days I am able to see the beauty inherent in life. . . most days I hardly even think about the assalut. It happened to me one time, and in reality it could have been much, much worse. So in a way I am thankful that I was only assaulted. . . given that there are worse things. And even though this happened, and even though it ocassionally causes me pain or difficulty, I still choose to see the best in people. I choose to look for beauty. I choose not to let the experience control me. . . but to master the feelings and reactions I have to the episode. I choose to be compassionate, and to help people. I do my best to meet people wherever they are, and accept them as they are. In this way I fight darkness, despite, despair. I sow beauty and light because it is what I want to reap. . . for myself and for others.

Anyway. . I know that this isn't adding anything to the philosophical bent that this thread has taken recently, but I finally decided it was only fair that I reveal this about myself since these three have trusted me (all of us) with their own stories.

I hope that what I have said makes some sense. . .

~Lyr, quite tired

[Furls Fire]

Well, being the usual strong willed silent type I don't usually express these things,not publicly at any rate.The recent loss of so many children at the hands of sick pedo-philes is more than I can take.I know there isn't much I can do,but pray for the children.My heart lies breaking within,my soul at a loss,parts of me fell empty of the loss of children I will never meet.Please.Can somebody tell me when this will stop? WHY does it have to be the kids?They've only just begun life........I'm going to stop here,my heart can't say much more.any spiritual guidance here would be helpful.............

Ah sweet mercy

There are no answers, at least none we can comprehend. When I first heard of this my soul was filled with such sorrow, I cried for hours. But, then as time went on, I began taking cues from the Amish themselves. Their faith is unwavering, their strength unbreakable...in the face of such horrendous tragedy, they found it in their hearts to forgive. And altho I, myself, still want to understand it and still harbor great annomosity to the man who did this horrible act (and the man who killed that sweet girl in Colorado), I am, like the Amish, turning to my faith to help me wade thru it all.

The Amish have reached out their hearts and hands to the family of the man who killed their children...

I am in awe of them...There are no words...

Peace

[Furls Fire]

Lyr...

Huggles to you.

[spacemonkey]

Elucidating for Avatar. .

Rather, for Emerson, human beings participate in the monistic unity of creation (which he calls, for short, the Oversoul) that runs the same through planets, rocks, plants, animals, and the consciousness of humanity. This creator spiritus is larger and more inclusive than any particular incarnations, so that “the philosophy of six thousand years has not searched the chambers and magazines of the soul,” which could never be definitively mapped in any case, given the dialectics of consciousness.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversoul

This is something from Bhuddism known as "GAIA",it too contains the oversoul of the Earth and that all return to GAIA with new experiences be that negative or positive, all return to allow GAIA to grow.......

[Avatar]

I am in awe of them...There are no words...

Peace

Amen Furls.

--A

[SoulQuest1970]

Lyr, you make perfect sense.

You go girl!

[ur-monkey]

Spacemonkey:

I'm pretty sure Gaia (or Gaea as it's often spelled) is a deity of ancient Greek origin, although she was indeed a Mother Earth goddess.

It's also interesting to note that the term or concept has cropped up here and there in more recent terminologies too! For instance, Pan-gaea (literally spanning-earth or across-earth) is the name given in geology to the immense supercontinent that existed about 200 million years ago, when all of Earth's land-area was sqashed together. Heck, even the 'Ge' in 'geology' shares the same origin! (Gaea-ology, the study of the Earth )

It's a concept I'm particularly fond of, the idea that mother Earth might be a vast organism and all the life on it are like it's individual cells...the entire biosphere of Earth makes up an entity that is far greater than the sum of it's parts. And maybe - just maybe - we human beings (and other monkeys of course are its sentiency.

We're quite sick at the moment... but I tend to believe that old Gaea is tougher than we give her credit for.

[spacemonkey]

Ur-monkey, yes, that's correct. It also has origins in Paganism as well as many other cultures and religions as well. I too have a fondness of Gaia,although I don't believe that when we return to Gaia that's all there is. There is a great deal we as humans have forgotten along the way,a key piece of everything, that is what I'm currently searching for. I believe someday I may indeed find it. I would like to. Thanx for the lesson Mr. Monkey. I have forgotten many things you have pointed out. Until then, PRIMATES RULE!!!! Peace, later fellow primate!!!

[Avatar]

She is tougher. I don't think there's much we could do that would actually literally destroy it. Humans and the other species aren't quite as tough though. It's conceivable that the future of old Gaia may not include us, despite our intentions.

--A

[ur-monkey]

Good luck in your search, Spacemonkey! I'll wager your inquisitive nature will take you far

And Avatar:

I don't think there's much we could do that would actually literally destroy it. Humans and the other species aren't quite as tough though. It's conceivable that the future of old Gaia may not include us, despite our intentions.

Absolutely. I'd say that was more or less inevitable. Nothing lasts forever after all - and that's a serious blow to our human egos, innit? Watch out for those cockroaches, I say!

[Avatar]

I'll start worrying when they develop opposable thumbs.

But yeah, the human ego is a remarkable thing.

--A

[hamako]

IN the UK, a paedo gets say upto 10 years at first offence, if it reoffends it get life. My father in law was prison governor and dealt with a lot of perverts in his time. He's told me about these filth. They should get life at first offence. the problem is that they don't see that they have a problem. I genuinely believe that they are mentally different to the rest of us and it's almost pointless in trying to rehabilitate them.

I have two daughters - if it happened to them I would hunt the scum down and top them myself and gladly do the time. I really mean that.

crimes against children are the most heinous and it's disgusting that the sentences handed out can be less than you get for armed robberry.

[Avatar]

Ridiculous isn't it?

Now, I agree that it's pretty pointless trying to rehabilitate them. But if they are mentally different, then does that mean it's not their fault?

--A

[The Laughing Man]

...then does that mean it's not their fault?

--A

oh no....here we go again.......

I am in awe of them...There are no words...

Peace

Amen Furls.

--A