Haruchai's mental speech

Post by **Cameraman Jenn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:16 pm

Ok, the ability for the Haruchai to mindspeak is an ability that is inherent in all Haruchai, Bloodguard or not. The Lords can mindmeld but it's not the same as mindspeak. It is more of a sharing of power than actual communication. Also, Haruchai mindspeak is not hindered by distance where as the Lords must be in contact with one another to mindmeld.

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:21 pm

Haruchai mindspeak is not inhindered by distance. What of the compulsion of the Clave? They used the mindspeak against the Haruchai--by the time they were close enough to communicate, it was too late and they were pulled into Revelstone. That suggests it had a limit on range, only much greater than that of the Lords' power.

Post by **Relayer** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:26 pm

Murrin wrote:Haruchai mindspeak is not inhindered by distance. What of the compulsion of the Clave? They used the mindspeak against the Haruchai--by the time they were close enough to communicate, it was too late and they were pulled into Revelstone. That suggests it had a limit on range, only much greater than that of the Lords' power.

Agreed.

Spoiler

If distance was not an issue, then Stave could have communicated w/ the rest of the Masters at any time. He needed to get to Revelstone first. He was not even able to tell Jass and Bornin that he had found Linden and Anele.

Post by **Warmark** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:27 pm

Murrin wrote:Haruchai mindspeak is not inhindered by distance. What of the compulsion of the Clave? They used the mindspeak against the Haruchai--by the time they were close enough to communicate, it was too late and they were pulled into Revelstone. That suggests it had a limit on range, only much greater than that of the Lords' power.

Exactly, there would be no need for the Loresraat to invent long distance communication if they could just use 2 bloodgaurd instead. I would bet it has a range limit, but like you said a large distance.

Post by **wayfriend** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:54 pm

Regarding the First Chronicles: okay, so I'm not nuts, the mindspeech thing wasn't overtly mentioned.

Regarding the Clave: The Clave could use their coercion power on anyone as far as I can tell. Didn't they use it on Sunder, Hollian, and Linden when they were captured? I don't think this power is dependent on Haruchai mindspeech.

Regarding the Lords: I don't think that their sharing is telepathy. It's a sharing of energy and spirit. One could discern another Lords emotional state, but I don't think they literally communicate mentally. Or am I missing something?

Another thing: Can't the Haruchai also communicate mentally with their Ranyhyn? Didn't I read that? Is the one thing dependent on the other, or is that a different thing altogether?

Post by **Cameraman Jenn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:58 pm

Ok, I could be wrong about the distance thing but I am right about it being an attribute shared by all Haruchai. Yes, Wayfriend, the Haruchai could communicate with the Ranyhyn and yes I agree that the Lords mindmeld is more a sharing of power and emotion.

Post by **kevinswatch** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:08 pm

Perhaps the Haruchai need a better long distance telecommunication provider. Verizon perhaps?

Really, the whole mind reading thing wasn't referenced once in the whole first chronicles, outside of GF? Wow. That's odd.-jay

Post by **balon!** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:02 pm

White Gold Wielder

Untill the previos night, when Brinn had left the qeust to take up his role as ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol, Cail had never been alone in his chosen duty; and the mental interconnection of his people had kept him aware of what took place around him. But now he was alone.

Example: TIW, Knowledge.

Slowly, Bannor turned toward the First Mark. They regarded each other in silence for a long moment. Then Morin faced the High Lord with a magisterial look in his eyes. "High Lord", he said, "we do not know the name of the Seventh Ward´s power"...

I think this was from the One Tree, in any case, the same topic was one of my first posts here, and we ended up coming up with; the Haruchai use a form of telepathy as their main source of language. Speaking is something foreign to them.

This isn't much, so keep at the theory's!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:31 am

Ah, so many questions, not enough answers!

We don't know if the Old Lords had a mind-meld. We only know that the New Lords didn't learn how to do it from Kevin's Wards.

The New Lords didn't need to be in contact to meld.

The nature of their meld is unclear. We're never told that they speak words, as we saw the Haruchai do in GILDEN-FIRE. They picked Elena to be their High Lord while melded. Maybe they all just learned what everyone else felt because of a deep empathy, and knew that she was at least a majority favorite. But Mhoram holding back so as not to teach the others the RoD seems more. Teaching how the Oath is the wall between them and full understanding of Kevin's Lore seems pretty specific. But I guess it could be done with deep empathy. *sigh* heh

The thing that surprised me most about the New Lords' meld was that Elena could do it with Covenant. (Although he refused.)

And no, I can't think of a non-GILDEN-FIRE 1st Chrons mention of the Bloodguard having telepathy of any sort. Some good clues, like that mentioned, where Bannor and Morin appear to "speak" and decide to reveal the name of the 7th Ward. Also, Mhoram knew someone was approaching them on Kevin's Watch, but Ruel knew it was Tull before Tull topped the stair and came into sight. And, without speaking, Bannor and Morin came up with the plan for Bannor to throw Covenant down a 15-20 foot drop onto a not-clearly-visible ledge into Morin's waiting arms. In hindsight, it seems obvious that they had some mind speech.

But can it be nothing but clues? Would anyone who didn't read GF or beyond the 1st Chrons think they had it? I have to go through it all again, and see if I can't find something more concrete!!

Post by **Avatar** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:04 am

Wayfriend wrote:Regarding the First Chronicles: okay, so I'm not nuts, the mindspeech thing wasn't overtly mentioned.

I didn't think so either.

Fist wrote:But can it be nothing but clues? Would anyone who didn't read GF or beyond the 1st Chrons think they had it?

I didn't. To all intents and purposes, I do consider GF to be outside the continuity of the 1st Chrons. Only whats in the books as they were published counts.

And as I said, I distinctly remember being surprised when it's mentioned in the 2nd.

--A

Post by **variol son** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:43 am

Funnily, I wasn't. Even though how the Haruchai communicated with each other wasn't made clear until the second chronicles (and the third), I just assumed it was via some sort of telepathy. Hmmm.

Post by **Avatar** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:45 am

I just never picked up on the hints I guess. Also, I never read GF until years later.

--A

Post by **variol son** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:48 am

I read Gilden-Fire after the second chronicles so maybe that's got something to do with it?

Post by **Avatar** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:51 am

Nah, it gets explicitly mentioned in GF, but it's mentioned first in the 2nd Chrons. So if you knew in the 2nd Chrons, it can only be because you got the hints.

--A

Post by **mortem** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:08 pm

It's mainly just hinted at in the first chronicles, as in Balon's TIW quote above, as well as the many times that SRD writes that speaking aloud seems to be 'awkward' for the Haruchai (excluding GF).

Post by **Avatar** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:08 am

I'm no good at hints.

(I assumed the speech awkwardness was a language issue, since their words in their own language had a "tonal lilt" IIRC. )

--A

Post by **matrixman** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:27 pm

It's interesting that readers have been bothered by the apparent "sudden" revelation of the Haruchai mindspeech in the 2nd Chronicles. Personally, I never got worked up about it. It was simply a detail that I accepted among all the other details in the vast canvas that SRD was painting in the 2nd Chrons. I guess I'm saying that I enjoy the books on a simple level when I'm actually reading them. I'm not analyzing them when I'm caught up in the adventure.

Anyway, like Av, I'm not good at detecting clues.

Post by **iQuestor** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:36 pm

Matrixman wrote:It's interesting that readers have been bothered by the apparent "sudden" revelation of the Haruchai mindspeech in the 2nd Chronicles. Personally, I never got worked up about it. It was simply a detail that I accepted among all the other details in the vast canvas that SRD was painting in the 2nd Chrons. I guess I'm saying that I enjoy the books on a simple level when I'm actually reading them. I'm not analyzing them when I'm caught up in the adventure.

Anyway, like Av, I'm not good at detecting clues.

For my experience, I wouldnt say bothered; when I discovered their ability in the second chrons, I assumed I had missed it, and never really found it concretely stated in first chrons until I read Gilden-Fire. There are clues but you have to be looking specifically for them knowing what you are looking at, or I guess a very astute reader might have known they had some special ability.

I chalked it up to me being dense and missing what others must have found obvious when they read the 1st chrons; it wasn't unitl WayFriend and a few others here related the same experience in this thread that I felt there was a possible disconnect.

It wouldn't be so if Gilden-Fire has been included in the original text. [/i]

Post by **wayfriend** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:38 pm

Ditto. I am not "bothered". I was just wondering if anyone else had the same experience.

It's good to know you're not crazy.

Post by **iQuestor** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:16 am

It's good to know you're not crazy.

well, at least not crazy because of that.