!!SPOILERS!! AATE complete novel discussion !!SPOILERS!!

[Vraith]

The root word of all three names comes from the Latin for "to command"; the final syllable of their names--"a", "o", and "um"--phonetically spell out the meditative intonation "aum", as in "aummannepatmeaum" or "the jewel is in the lotus".

Anyway...if you want to know why there are three villains then the discussion gets a lot more complex and deep. We would have to discuss the meanings associated with the number three--there are many--and what the three villains themselves represent.
[/color]

Is that true about the Masonic and "aum," and was it done on purpose?
Interesting...I knew the origins had [mostly speculative] connections to various christian, jewish, and several near- and mid-eastern religions/philosophies, but never heard of hindu/buddhist/yogic origins/influences.

And yea, the 3's. We have a few of them now & throughout story.
Triplet Giants [twice, at least, 1st & Last C's.] LF/Creator/She. Haruchai [humbled, and 3 "modeled" on], just a few obvious ones. Possibles [at least to think on as groups, whether really are or not] TC's mates: Linden, Joan, Lena. [And their children: Elena, Roger, Jerry]. Elohim--Kasty, Findail, Infelice [I mention that cuz a thought occured to me, maybe for predictions thread...perhaps part of survival, Infelice will have to be a kind of "Appointed" in relation to Jerry and his power...perhaps].
Probably more, I like 3's cuz it lives nicely with my main structural/thematic interpretation.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

It is true--just look at the last letters of the villain's names--but was it done on purpose? *shrug* I have no way of knowing; I suspect not but I could be mistaken. Masonic lore seems to have taken little bits from here and there to form a relatively-consistent framework. No, I am not a Mason...but I have been interested in joining before even though I have never asked any Masons I know about joining.

I never though too much about threes in Covenant before, but you are correct--the triplet Giants signaled the end of the Unhomed in the Land (but they didn't know how they would leave).

How do we know that Infelice has not been Appointed to bear some burden? Just because she has never mentioned it doesn't mean that it isn't there; she might not have mentioned it because she doesn't want to do it.

And you mention Creator/Foul/She. There does seem to be some sort of relationship there...are Foul and She the son and daughter of the Creator? According to Kasreyn, all "perfect" works must contain a flaw because the world contains a flaw--clearly, Foul is the flaw with which the Creator was able to make the world. Follow this line of thought, though, and you arrive at the conclusion that the Creator made Foul the way he was on purpose with one specific goal in mind--creating the world. He didn't realize that Foul had tricked She into being inside the Arch when it was completed and sealed, though. Lots of idea possibilities, there.

Anyway...threes are almost built into our psychology. Triangles seem inherently strong to us because they have a wide foundation and taper to a point at the top; indeed, nature uses triangular shapes for many natural formations. Also, the best stories aren't just love stories about a guy and a girl or stories of the struggle between a parent and a child; rather, the best stories are triangles--there are three main characters and the interactions between them create a richer, more complex tapestry.

[Vraith]

And you mention Creator/Foul/She. There does seem to be some sort of relationship there...are Foul and She the son and daughter of the Creator? According to Kasreyn, all "perfect" works must contain a flaw because the world contains a flaw--clearly, Foul is the flaw with which the Creator was able to make the world. Follow this line of thought, though, and you arrive at the conclusion that the Creator made Foul the way he was on purpose with one specific goal in mind--creating the world. He didn't realize that Foul had tricked She into being inside the Arch when it was completed and sealed, though.

I look at C/LF/SHE in several ways...but all of them involve them being equal/independent necessities...one of them the love triangle you mentioned.
Also as [not literally/functionally/precisely freudian...symbolically, roughly] id, ego, super-ego of whatever "space" the immortal realm exists in. That trio in parallel with others, such as body/mind/spirit, rational/irrational/mystical. I don't see thesis/antithesis/synthesis in this...the trinities are maintained always...there's one, its opposite, and the turbulent fields of force/negotiation/transformation between. Nothing is synthesized, never a collapse to "solved."...any apparent solution generates/opens/reveals more space. Something Z said somewhere about boundary...yea, but not a line, a borderlands, a territory.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I suspect that the resolution to TLD might be something where Linden gets She to act against Foul, possibly even healing herself through some sort of caamora like when Foamfollower laughed at Foul. Yes, I know--that is probably an extremely unlikely scenario because that would too happy an ending.

[Vraith]

I suspect that the resolution to TLD might be something where Linden gets She to act against Foul, possibly even healing herself through some sort of caamora like when Foamfollower laughed at Foul. Yes, I know--that is probably an extremely unlikely scenario because that would too happy an ending.

Oh, I don't know...I'm convinced SHE is going to be returned to "that which makes love possible" from her current insane state...though I agree the process won't be pretty.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I had a really weird thought last night. What if Foul's "deeper purpose", the one of which he will not speak, is to become something that he currently is not. What if he is trying to turn away from his own nature?

Yes, I know--probably not. At least, it seems too far-fetched to believe. Foul is what he is and he seems content with that so why should he want to change? Still...the idea was intriguing.

[I'm Murrin]

Foul has been utterly absent from The Last Chronicles, after the translation and apart from his possession of Anele in Runes. Makes you wonder. We have no real sign that he's acting at all in the events going on.

Thinking about his "deeper purpose", however, and his promises concerning Jeremiah ("If he serves me, he will do so in your presence"), it is worth noting that he contrived the circumstances of Jeremiah's condition through the actions of the Community of Retribution and later the croyel, and he was also, tellingly, responsible for the existance of the bones which Jeremiah used to free himself.

We can't really say that Foul could possibly be so far sighted as to know all the way back when he created the quellvisk, but he knew the bones existed, and he had some part in shaping Jeremiah's passivity.

"It boots nothing to avoid his snares, for they are ever beset with other snares..." Plans within plans, in other words. He cannot possibly orchestrate every part of every event - he knows the necessity of freedom as well as anyone - so he contrives to create in every possibility some route to his own desires. Jeremiah's resurrection, and the means by which it was achieved, may have already been accounted for.


(The final answer to Foul will be utterly different from that given in the First and Second Chronicles, of course. Donaldosn tells us this near the end of Against All Things Ending.

Like the Worm, the tsunami exceeded living comprehension. It could be neither accepted nor opposed. It required a different answer.

In speaking of the tsunami and the Worm, he recalls obliquely Covenant's previous defeats of Foul. In The Power That Preserves he was diminished by opposition. In White Gold Wielder, by Covenant's acceptance. His final end will require another answer.)

[Horrim Carabal]

Foul has been utterly absent from The Last Chronicles, after the translation and apart from his possession of Anele in Runes. Makes you wonder. We have no real sign that he's acting at all in the events going on.

Yes I noticed that as well. I think he has less to do, this time. He has "farmed out" the heavy lifting to Joan, to Kastenessen, and to Roger.

This could be Foul at the absolute pinnacle of his powers. Such a mastery of events that he doesn't even appear, not even in the shadows. No need to act whatsoever, at least so far. Perhaps due to better tools this time?

In speaking of the tsunami and the Worm, he recalls obliquely Covenant's previous defeats of Foul. In The Power That Preserves he was diminished by opposition. In White Gold Wielder, by Covenant's acceptance. His final end will require another answer.)

Great point. I agree 100%.

[DrPaul]

Foul has been utterly absent from The Last Chronicles, after the translation and apart from his possession of Anele in Runes. Makes you wonder. We have no real sign that he's acting at all in the events going on.

Yes I noticed that as well. I think he has less to do, this time. He has "farmed out" the heavy lifting to Joan, to Kastenessen, and to Roger.

This could be Foul at the absolute pinnacle of his powers. Such a mastery of events that he doesn't even appear, not even in the shadows. No need to act whatsoever, at least so far. Perhaps due to better tools this time?

In speaking of the tsunami and the Worm, he recalls obliquely Covenant's previous defeats of Foul. In The Power That Preserves he was diminished by opposition. In White Gold Wielder, by Covenant's acceptance. His final end will require another answer.)

Great point. I agree 100%.

SRD has said on the Gradual Interview that this time around Foul is relying on manipulating "very powerful proxies", which SRD has also described as "more powerful" than the Ravers, but "less predictable". Foul is therefore perhaps not the complete master of events, and is resorting to a high risk/high return strategy.

[Savor Dam]

Foul's absence from direct involvement is a mirror image of the Creator's apparent abdication.

Draw whatever conclusions suit your paradigm...then RAFO.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Foul's absence from direct involvement is a mirror image of the Creator's apparent abdication.

Draw whatever conclusions suit your paradigm...then RAFO.

At this point I would say that Covenant's physical condition at the end of AATE mirrors that of the Earth as it is being ravaged by the Worm.

[Horrim Carabal]

SRD has said on the Gradual Interview that this time around Foul is relying on manipulating "very powerful proxies", which SRD has also described as "more powerful" than the Ravers, but "less predictable". Foul is therefore perhaps not the complete master of events, and is resorting to a high risk/high return strategy.

Yeah he's trusting that Kastenessen isn't going to go totally batshit crazy, he was trusting Joan wasn't going to vaporize her handlers and the Raver, he's trusting the Croyel and Roger aren't going to try a double-cross, etc etc.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

SRD has said on the Gradual Interview that this time around Foul is relying on manipulating "very powerful proxies", which SRD has also described as "more powerful" than the Ravers, but "less predictable". Foul is therefore perhaps not the complete master of events, and is resorting to a high risk/high return strategy.

Yeah he's trusting that Kastenessen isn't going to go totally batshit crazy, he was trusting Joan wasn't going to vaporize her handlers and the Raver, he's trusting the Croyel and Roger aren't going to try a double-cross, etc etc.

That last is what I'm hoping for - a double-cross. Maybe Kasty will be in on it too.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Kastenessen is already totally insane or he wouldn't be doing what he is doing. Roger is definitely going to try to double-cross Foul at the earliest opportunity; of course, Foul knows this and has already made contingency plans. I don't know if Roger has made contingency plans to counteract Foul's contingency plans, though but I highly doubt it.

[Starfire 152]

When we first meet Roger he is cold and calculating, having reached the culmination of long-range plans. Even when unmasked at the end of the "real world" opening section, his grisly demands (cut off your hand) are delivered in a entirely rational manner.
The strain of his long charade, plus the influence of his halfhand, seems to have unsettled him.
By the end of AATE his thinking is more Kastenessen-like, than original Roger. I dont think he can plan five minutes ahead, much less outmanuvre Foul. Was his entire plan dependent on the croyel?

Maybe original Roger was just Foul's programming.

Why didnt Roger claim Joan's ring while in the Land and use it?

I don't know if Roger has made contingency plans to counteract Foul's contingency plans, though but I highly doubt it.

[Vraith]

When we first meet Roger he is cold and calculating, having reached the culmination of long-range plans. Even when unmasked at the end of the "real world" opening section, his grisly demands (cut off your hand) are delivered in a entirely rational manner.
The strain of his long charade, plus the influence of his halfhand, seems to have unsettled him.
By the end of AATE his thinking is more Kastenessen-like, than original Roger. I dont think he can plan five minutes ahead, much less outmanuvre Foul. Was his entire plan dependent on the croyel?

Maybe original Roger was just Foul's programming.

Why didnt Roger claim Joan's ring while in the Land and use it?

I have a fairly long-running disagreement with WOTWE about this, and now one with the first part of what you say [and a bit with Hashi, too]. Roger may have been cold, but he was only calculating if you give someone credit for TRYIng to calculate when they say '1+1=3'
Roger is this works version of Drool...a little cunning here and there, but really wallowing in stupidity and unseen manipulation carefully encouraged to make him feel smart and powerful. He never executed any long range plans of his own, he was just LF's meat puppet in the 'real' world, and everyones in the Land. He's a tool, in every sense of the word and...unless someone rescues him... he will be tested to destruction.
Kasty is crazy, but legitimately powerful. As was our poor dead 1/2 merewive, and Joan, as is Longwrath [maybe] as is SHE [for sure].

As for the literal answer about why Roger didn't claim Joan's ring...because LF never let him get within a million miles of that ring, and never would.

[Cambo]

Yeah, Roger's a kid trying to play with the big boys. He's got some power, and that makes him dangerous, but ultimately he's destined to get shafted. Foul, and even TC, have been playing this game way longer than him.

[Avatar]

Yeah, think I pretty much agree. He might be calculating in the real-world sociopath sense, but there's no way he's prepared for the realities of competing in this "fantasy" environment.

I do think he's gonna try put one over on Foul/Kastenessen, but it'll be the death of him.

--A

[Starfire 152]

Yo, Roger, 'Lord Fouls's a liar',
Said his leprous old sire,
'Dont hold hands with a croyel',
'instead of a goy-el',
and now his right hands a-fire.

[Horrim Carabal]

I do think he's gonna try put one over on Foul/Kastenessen, but it'll be the death of him.

--A

Kastenessen will roast him alive from the inside out.

But I wonder what Kasty's relationship with Foul is. Allied? Indifferent? Blissfully ignorant?