Bakker's THE DARKNESS THAT COMES BEFORE

Post by **SerScot** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:55 pm

Since no one is pick up this discussion here's more on it from another board I frequent:

asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/42310-r-scott-bakker/

Post by **danlo** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:14 pm

I'd like to, and I just renewed my membership there, but the way those guys tear into Erikson and halfway flame on other authors (including SRD in some cases) make me remember (besides this very prolonged delay with DWD) why I haven't posted in 3 years...I'll still check it out--very interesting discussion of Bakker in the 'Different aspects of magic' thread...

Post by **Brinn** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:44 am

Love Bakker. If anyone wants to discuss, I'm in.

Post by **[Syl]** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:34 am

I love it when people call Bakker or other 'archaic' fiction authors misogynistic (where it's understandable for authors like, say, Cormac McCarthy, but few people care). The spine of TPoN is the frickin' crusades. Not exactly the pinnacle of gender equality in western history.

Of course, I haven't read Neuropath (if anyone wants to send me their used copy...).

Post by **Avatar** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:44 am

Must say I found the whole crusades thing in this series...not off-putting exactly, but perhaps drawn a little too strongly from our own crusades. It didn't bother me, but it did affect my immersion once or twice.

--A

Post by **[Syl]** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:48 pm

When I first read it, I was struck by how much it reminded me of Harold Lamb's Iron Men and Saints, and I thought that was a good thing. I said as much to Bakker at the Three Seas forum, and he thanked me for noticing, said Lamb was a huge influence.

Post by **SerScot** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:10 pm

Syl,

Syl wrote:I love it when people call Bakker or other 'archaic' fiction authors misogynistic (where it's understandable for authors like, say, Cormac McCarthy, but few people care). The spine of TPoN is the frickin' crusades. Not exactly the pinnacle of gender equality in western history.

Of course, I haven't read Neuropath (if anyone wants to send me their used copy...).

The gist of the argument that Bakker is a Misogynist runs from the fact that women in Earwa are inherently inferior to men, objectively. Bakker has admitted this and has done this deliberately in order to explore a world where Gods are objectively real and that have created situations where class and sex despareties are also objectively real. Hence, some readers get the impression that because Bakker is taking the discussion down this path he must be starting from a point where he is a sexist.

I think it's an interesting discussion because by its very nature it means some people think exploring a particular topic reveals your own prejudices. I think they are incorrect but it's an interesting discussion to watch take place.

Post by **pat5150** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:55 pm

Bakker is indeed great!

Just finished The White-Luck Warrior.

Though the philosophical aspects and the inner musings are back and slow the pace in some instances, this books was nevertheless the shit!

Check out the blog for the full review...

Merry Christmas to everyone!

Patrick
www.fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com

Post by **Zarathustra** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:51 pm

SerScot wrote: The gist of the argument that Bakker is a Misogynist runs from the fact that women in Earwa are inherently inferior to men, objectively. Bakker has admitted this and has done this deliberately in order to explore a world where Gods are objectively real and that have created situations where class and sex despareties are also objectively real. Hence, some readers get the impression that because Bakker is taking the discussion down this path he must be starting from a point where he is a sexist.

That's just asinine. Feminism has done many wonderful things for women, but in many ways it has also seriously warped our thinking. If we can't point out misogynism in fictional societies (and by extension, in our society/history) without being accused of the very thing we're pointing out, something is very wrong without our ability to distinguish reality from PC ideals. We're getting to the point where only a select few can dare point out a social disparity. If Bakker had been a woman, this charge would never have been made.

It reminds me of watching Airplane with my 10-yr-old son last night. I thought it was going to be a fun father/son moment where I introduce him to a fondly remembered experience from my own childhood ... and he kept complaining about how racist it was. The "jive talkin'" translations ... the Peace Corps introducing basketball to Africans (who immediately take to the sport without any training whatsoever). We have become so hyper-sensitive to offending anyone, that we can't point out real instances of racial differences and disparities without large segments of our population quivering in fear produced by their PC indoctrination.

Post by **SerScot** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:51 pm

Zarathustra,

Look at the thread I linked to (and aid your voice to the arguments in General Chatter another conservative would be welcome) the arguments made there are much more cohesive than I've represented here.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Wed May 04, 2011 7:49 pm

I'm finally reading this. Luci recommended it to me long ago, saying that I'd probably prefer it to Malazan, because it was more philosophical/psychological. I couldn't seem to get started, and tore through Malazan instead.

But here I am.

So... Can anyone help me? I hope this can be answered without spoilers. I'm only on page 80. I can't get a clear idea on what the territories are, and which magic group works in which territory. The new leader of who is declaring a holy war on what, and who's on whose side???

Post by **Brinn** » Sat May 07, 2011 12:57 am

Keep going. The beginning introduces a great deal of characters and begins to build the world. If you could follow Erikson than you should have no problem with Bakker. If you have any specific questions, let me know and I'll try to give you some spoiler free answers.

Good luck as I think you are beginning the best fantasy series ever written.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat May 07, 2011 1:42 am

I think the stuff I want to know now is just superficial.

The Mandate is one of the Schools, and their ruling body is the Quorum. Right? What nation, or territory, is their home turf?

Kian is a nation. And the "School" of the Cishaurim operate there? And the Fanim are the people in general?

The Thousand Temples, now ruled by Maithanet, who has declared himself the Shriah.

Where do the Scarlet Spires operate?

Post by **Brinn** » Sat May 07, 2011 4:58 am

Fist and Faith wrote:I think the stuff I want to know now is just superficial.

The Mandate is one of the Schools, and their ruling body is the Quorum. Right? What nation, or territory, is their home turf?

Kian is a nation. And the "School" of the Cishaurim operate there? And the Fanim are the people in general?

The Thousand Temples, now ruled by Maithanet, who has declared himself the Shriah.

Where do the Scarlet Spires operate?

The Scarlet Spires are based in High Ainon. Not sure I recall where the Mandate is based but the info is not terribly relevant. If you keep reading you will begin to get the races and places straight.

Post by **SerScot** » Mon May 09, 2011 2:26 pm

I finished White-Luck Warrior last week. I like this series but this is one of the darkest things I've ever read.

Post by **Brinn** » Tue May 10, 2011 1:39 am

Isn't it wonderful!!!

Post by **SerScot** » Tue May 10, 2011 1:31 pm

Brinn,

In my opinion the overwhelming darkness in this series makes reading the book something of a (ironically enough) slog.

Post by **Zarathustra** » Tue May 10, 2011 8:02 pm

F/F, think of this as the Crusades with a handful of schools of magic thrown in. Inrithism = Christianity. The Thousands Temples is the Catholic church, Maithenet is the Pope, Kian is the Holy Land now occupied by the Fanim (Muslims). Shimeh is Jeruselem.

The Mandate is a particularly powerful and special school of magic, which uses a kind of magic that none of the others possess. It's based on an island Nron in the middle of the Three Seas, at the city of Atyersus (which is a fairly unimportant detail--Brinn is right).

My knowledge of the details of the Crusades is pretty sketchy. I found this in a post on Bakker's fansite:

Nansur-Byzantine Empire
Galeoth-France
Ce Tydonn-Holy Roman Empire
High Ainon-Italy
Conriya-Britain
Thunyerus-Nordic nations
Kian/Shigek/Gedea/Enathpaneah-Turks/Seljuks/Saracens/Persians

forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=3366

The most powerful school of magic is the Scarlet Spires, which is based in High Ainon. The Imperial Saik is a School of the Nansur Empire. The Cishaurim is the school of the Fanim.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Tue May 10, 2011 8:21 pm

Heh. Thanks. I'll give that a shot.

Post by **Brinn** » Tue May 10, 2011 9:49 pm

SerScot,

I think that's what I like about Bakker. He isn't afraid to push the envelope. I think Martin opened my eyes to this type of "adult" fantasy but I think Bakker has upped the ante. I love the fearlessness and the willingness to push boundaries. I also think his prose is lightyears ahead of any other fantasy author currently writing.

Z,

Very interesting to have the fantasy nations and their real-world counterparts spelled out like that. I might have to do another re-read wiith that in mind.

P.S.
Have you picked up White Luck Warrior yet? If not you should!

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Bakker's THE DARKNESS THAT COMES BEFORE