Suggesting Changes to the Last Chronicles

Book 4 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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ussusimiel
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Post by ussusimiel »

I have tried numerous times to frame a post for this and the previous thread and each time I have held back because I could find no way to get my head around all of the issues. I feel very personally involved in the whole thing and that has given me an insight into what is may be going on.

The Watch is like a big family for many people (myself included :lol: ) with SRD being like the distant patriarch. With the end of the Chrons it is as if we are at a sort of a wake (not an Irish one obviously or we'd be having a hooley instead of a row :biggrin: ) and what I feel is happening is that the cracks in some people's previous unconditional admiration for SRD (through the 1st & 2nd Chrons and the Gap series) are finally coming to the surface (after having been kept submerged for many years by the presence of the patriarch's unfinished work). In a way this is a very natural thing to happen (it occurs all the time in families in RL).*

I think that this may also have larger implications for the Watch. It may mean the final end of the original nuclear family. Sad and all as this may be (and it has been ongoing for sometime now) it may also be part of the natural cycle of this type of community (I've looked for studies about the life-cycle of virtual communities but couldn't really find any (another possible sociology Masters thesis there :lol: )). In the fracture and separation people may fall out and never speak again and also they may take what they have learned and head out into the virtual world and start new families *optimistic shoulder shrug*

Again on a personal level (and not wanting to tell anyone how to behave) I would prefer it if the debating tone had never jumped the (shark) 'Tank (see what I did there ;) ). I understand why this has happened but, while certain posts (e.g. implying that specific perspectives are necessary to fully understand the LCs) have rubbed me up the wrong way, I have not felt it necessary to do anything more than ignore them. I would not do this in the 'Tank, but in other forums (fora) on the Watch I know that the rebuttal/fisking sort of posting style will only serve to drive people away. In my experience when it is deployed a thread inevitably begins to feel political. If such discussions are felt to be necessary, my preference is for them to be held in the 'Tank. In a forum such as this I trust the mods to rein in anything that is truly out of order (objections to the moderation policy, IMO, tip us back into political (and family :lol: ) territory).

I feel that I have a foot in both camps here (which fits with my role as peacemaker/smoother-over-of-troubles in the family :lol: ). My reaction to the LCs has been fairly consistently negative and yet I empathise strongly with the feeling that overly criticising them risks seeming disrespectful towards SRD and may seem hurtful/hateful to those who, on the whole, have enjoyed the Last Chronicles. As with all those who have been less than overjoyed by TLD this is not my intention, however, I recognise that in the first flush of finishing TLD I may have been intemperate in some of the things I said. The best defence that I feel I can put forward for this is my passion.

And this is the note that I would like to end on. We would not be arguing like this if we all did not care passionately about SRD's work. That is what has drawn us all here and that is the common ground on which our disagreements are played out. If we didn't care we wouldn't be bothered to argue about our different responses to TLD (and the LCs). In one way this is blatantly obvious, yet in another (as with family-related issues) being so intimately involved in the drama may cause us to forget that it is what we agree on (our esteem for SRD's work) that enables the disagreement.**

u.

*Personally (as I've mused about in other posts) I think that SRD may have actually deliberately written the Chrons in a way that would drive some of his most ardent (pun noted) fans away. Odd as it may seem, he may have wanted to push his children to leave the nest in anger. (From a couple of his most recent interviews I certainly think that he wanted to get some distance from his own emotional entanglement with the success of the 1st & 2nd Chrons.)

**Unsuprisingly, our shared capacity to care passionately embodies one of the core values of SRD's work. It could hardly be otherwise!
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Post by lurch »

Haa!..Its obvious enough that there are individuals upset with ME..coming in here and saying there are other ways to perceive the story, the books, that have given ME, lurch, enjoyment and pleasure, rather than disappointment, bad taste in mouth, an abandoned feeling, and or a sense of just flat out failed by the author...How dare I state ways to see the work that has at least brought me and a few others enjoyment?..Imean..what do you give a person who is not happy?, not satisfied? More reason to be unhappy? Or, Maybe a way to happiness, a way to finding satisfaction....If I say.." I am happy, I am satisfied with what I got,,I'll tell you how it is that I am so. And yes..I'll suggest for one to give it a try...Why wouldn't I?

My assumption has been...that folks don't like being unhappy,,,don't like being dissatisfied and when offered a choice, just might come around to taking a suggestion. I see that ,just like so many times before and in different web sites at that..as long as there is anybody around to blame ones unhappiness on, rather than own it yourself,,you will probably never do any thing about your unhappiness..
.So, lf there be personal attacks and innuendo, I'll say it upfront and now..do you like being unhappy, dissatisfied, with Donaldson's work? It isn't going to change. Its a done deal..Fini..So if you want to be happier or satisfied with the work..You have to change because the work is not going to change. And..its OKAY if you don't want to change just to be satisfied. But That requires a bit of honesty with yourself and with here tho.
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Post by TheFallen »

lurch wrote:Haa!..Its obvious enough that there are individuals upset with ME..coming in here and saying there are other ways to perceive the story, the books, that have given ME, lurch, enjoyment and pleasure, rather than disappointment, bad taste in mouth, an abandoned feeling, and or a sense of just flat out failed by the author...How dare I state ways to see the work that has at least brought me and a few others enjoyment?..Imean..what do you give a person who is not happy?, not satisfied? More reason to be unhappy? Or, Maybe a way to happiness, a way to finding satisfaction....If I say.." I am happy, I am satisfied with what I got,,I'll tell you how it is that I am so. And yes..I'll suggest for one to give it a try...Why wouldn't I?

My assumption has been...that folks don't like being unhappy,,,don't like being dissatisfied and when offered a choice, just might come around to taking a suggestion.
A number of point-ettes arise here and I'm going to attempt to keep this GENERAL, rather than specific.

Had people actually posted in the manner that has been claimed above, I don't think anyone could possibly have taken offence or been rubbed up the wrong way. Positive and negative takes on the LCs are invariably going to be things of personal expression and so it's completely valid to post one's take on TLD and lay it out there as a choice, as an alternative view, as a way of perception that, if considered, might deliver a greater sense of satisfaction or be more revelatory etc etc. It might point the way to something that one hadn't noticed. That'd be a good thing, if so couched.

...If only people had posted in the way claimed above. Unfortunately the above idealistic paradigm is exactly what did NOT happen - and as such it's an overt retconning of recent Watch history. So blatant that I'm not even going to bother quoting the numerous examples available of waspishly superior sniping. Sadly, rather than being presented with a choice, with someone's necessarily differing personal opinion, those disappointed in the book were more often than not stridently told by those worshipping it that they "just didn't get it", or were "delusional", or were not sufficiently educated or qualified, or were close-minded because they were incapable of "opening themselves" to the author's intent yadda yadda yadda ad infinitum - simply for having a different opinion/reaction (!!! :roll: ). Little wonder then that people saw themselves dismissively belittled as inferiors, because the whiff of arrogance was all too redolent. And as Z says, this has been pretty much one-way traffic - from ardent supporters towards the less than satisfied.

However, maybe this represents a watershed moment. I'd say by all means post your reactions to and thoughts upon the LCs, whether positive or negative... BUT remember that they're just a personal opinion. You're offering your views up as a CHOICE, which may or may not resonate with others. And if people don't see things the same way as you do, that doesn't make them emotionally stunted or intellectually challenged in any way... it simply means that they're not you.

I'll add a caveat. Pretty much everyone would agree that the entire Chrons are not just stories - SRD's got deeper messages that he's looking to convey. As such, his works are multi-levelled and will therefore be open to both emotional and intellectual interpretation. There is literally no point telling someone that his/her emotional reaction to the LCs is wrong or off-beam, because it's a self-validating thing... it's the way that the LCs made that individual feel. A personal example - because there is literally no other I can ever give - I'm largely emotionally distanced from the LCs because I don't find that anywhere near enough authorial attention was paid to the demands of the narrative level... but that's just me. I freely acknowledge that others will have had entirely different emotive reactions evoked within them by the same books and that's all good and equally valid for them.

However, when it comes to a purely intellectual interpretation of the more subliminal levels within the LCs, of SRD's messages, of the deeper metaphysical and/or philosophical and/or psychological strata of meaning, then I would absolutely expect there to be debate and opinion/counter-opinion. Why? Because people will express their intellectual opinion as to the meanings within the allegory, the import of the symbolism and evidentially support it with reference to the text. They'll post "I think SRD is telling us about a, because of examples b and c." Others will then inevitably say things along the lines of "Well, hang on. You say a, but elsewhere the text says x and y, so surely conclusion z is more likely". And that's all good too.
Last edited by TheFallen on Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Conclusion Z is always more likely. :twisted:
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

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I hope the board has calmed down after joulu. Happy holidays.
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Post by sindatur »

Hi Frosty, Happy Holidays, nice to see you are no longer "She Who Must Not Be Named" ;)

I've not been the greatest fan of Linden, there have been times when I just wanted to smack here, or tell her what she could do with that Staff.

So, Runes and the first half of Fatal Revenant, although I did get some enjoyment from them, were not as enjoyable the first time through as I would've liked. I actually liked them alot more, though, on the second time through.

I've enjoyed the rest of The Last Chronicles though, even on a first time through, and I am quite happy with the endings and the wrap ups. There were many things in The Last Dark that I truly enjoyed, and I don't recall anything that really annoyed me. It did start a little slow, but, that just made the conclusion better, IMHO.
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

Hi Owly, yes, I am Myself again. ;) At least for now. Hyvää joulua.
sindatur wrote:or tell her what she could do with that Staff
Alas, that incessant yammer about the Staff wrung my nerves as well during our many a peril-fraught travel and travail in the sargasso of the Earth. I opined to Linden Giantfriend that she ought to have approached Stave Rockbrother in terms of staff issues and heed his gentle care. Yet, did she ever harken...

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Post by peter »

SRD wrote 1C. in his twenties and it was the best - the best - story I had ever read. I read the three books repeatedly before even 2C came out and never the once got any idea that he was attempting to convey deeper meaning to me other than just to enrich my life by telling me a damn fine story. I know this reflects badly on me but could someone just run by me [in summery] the deeper message that 1C. was supposed to impart and which I so completely missed [and still do!].
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Post by sindatur »

Frostheart wrote:Hi Owly, yes, I am Myself again. ;) At least for now. Hyvää joulua.
sindatur wrote:or tell her what she could do with that Staff
Alas, that incessant yammer about the Staff wrung my nerves as well during our many a peril-fraught travel and travail in the sargasso of the Earth. I opined to Linden Giantfriend that she ought to have approached Stave Rockbrother in terms of staff issues and heed his gentle care. Yet, did she ever harken...

Behold, I found you a friend in the world of Pony macros.

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I do or have done quite a few Children's shows (Doctor Who, SarahJane Adventures, Wizards Vs. Aliens, Star Wars Clone Wars, Pirates of Dark Water, Roughnecks (Animated Starship Troopers), He-Man...) but, MLPs and Transformers have never been on the list :oops:

Cute Pony, though :D
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Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?

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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

The owl, good sir-fowl, the owl. :D

Apart from guilty pleasures, I watched an animated show called The Legend of Korra this autumn, and would gladly recommend it. Some of the most beautiful animation and skilled voice acting I've seen in a TV series for a while. Clone Wars was great, and while I tend to snigger at the original He-Man, I was a fan of the 2k3 series for a couple of years. :biggrin:

Now I'm getting worried about Effy. After she told me she'd take a glance at the Ponies, not a quarter of a syllable has been heard from her. 8O Either she has become a devoted Brony and taken permanent residence at the headquarters of Equestria Daily, or has suffered brain damage of a cyclopean scale.
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Post by sindatur »

Frostheart wrote:The owl, good sir-fowl, the owl. :D

Apart from guilty pleasures, I watched an animated show called The Legend of Korra this autumn, and would gladly recommend it. Some of the most beautiful animation and skilled voice acting I've seen in a TV series for a while. Clone Wars was great, and while I tend to snigger at the original He-Man, I was a fan of the 2k3 series for a couple of years. :biggrin:

Now I'm getting worried about Effy. After she told me she'd take a glance at the Ponies, not a quarter of a syllable has been heard from her. 8O Either she has become a devoted Brony and taken permanent residence at the headquarters of Equestria Daily, or has suffered brain damage of a cyclopean scale.
Well, yea, the Owl is definitely cute, I thought that would be known without being said :oops:

Oh, yes, Korra and Avatar: The Last Airbender are both stellar animated shows. Can't wait for Korra Book 3.

Funny. I loved the older He-Man (perhaps because it was so snigger-worthy?), and didn't like the 2003 version much myself.

Oops, we've strayed way off topic. If you photoshop that Pony's star from his behind onto his forehead, that should put us right back on topic ;)
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Post by Savor Dam »

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Post by Orlion »

Savor Dam wrote:Was that a star? I'd thought it was a talon wound seeping pony blood...
Magical friendship pony blood.
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Post by OhYeah »

DrPaul wrote:This discussion has reminded me of the old Yiddish proveeb: "Be careful what you wish for. You might get it."

I think that everyone who read and enjoyed the 1st and 2nd Chronicles would have hankered for a 3rd (or Last) Chronicles to be written at some stage. I know that I hoped for it.

At the same time, thinking maturely about it we probably should have realised - and certainly should now recognise - that:

(a) when SRD wrote The Last Chronicles he would be a different writer; and
(b) when we read The Last Chronicles we as readers would be different people.

It follows from (a) that either SRD's abilities may not now have been what they were when he was in his 20s and 30s and/or his approach to and thinking writing may have changed in ways that were not necessarily to our liking. If follows from (b) that our own responses would be different - would a like The First Chronicles as much if I came to it for the first time as a 50-something person rather than a 21 year old?

I could imagine myself finding the money to fork out for a ticket to a Led Zeppelin concert if they came to Australia next year, and I wouldn't feel let down just because Robert Plant didn't sing the same way in his mid-60s as he sang in his early-mid 20s.
But we do expect Donaldson to have the same fervency and vigor that he had when he wrote the 1st and 2nd Chronicles.

Using your analogy, I dont expect Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks of Fleetwood Mac to sound like they did in the mid-1970s. And we all know that Nicks does not, have matured from fresh faced siren to matured, gravel-voiced vixen, 35-40 years later. But when seeing The Mac on stage in 2013, Buckingham, Nicks, McVie and Fleetwood are still giving it their all, leaving nothing behind, and putting on the same fervent show they did when I first saw them in 1976 as a pre-teen. The 4 'old geezers' of Fleetwood Mac may not sound the same or play the same, but boy did they give it all -- sweating, jumping up and down, and being the best 60+ year old rockers I have seen in a long time.

Did Donaldson do so with the Last Chronicles? Did he 'bring down the house' like he did with The Wounded Land and The One Tree? I agree that he did somewhat with RotE, FR, and AATE. But I found The Last Dark to be a bit short, a bit lacking some explanation -- but a good book nonetheless.

And why write The Last Chronicles? Was Donaldson like Frank Herbert of the DUNE series? Herbert simply wrote Heretics of DUNE (Book 5) and Chapterhouse:DUNE (Book 6) to pay for a mansion in Hawaii.

Was there a greater purpose in writing The Last Chronicles for SD?
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Post by ussusimiel »

peter wrote:SRD wrote 1C. in his twenties and it was the best - the best - story I had ever read. I read the three books repeatedly before even 2C came out and never the once got any idea that he was attempting to convey deeper meaning to me other than just to enrich my life by telling me a damn fine story. I know this reflects badly on me but could someone just run by me [in summery] the deeper message that 1C. was supposed to impart and which I so completely missed [and still do!].
The deeper meaning of the 1st Chronicles may be the obvious one: it is possible to overcome self-hatred (i.e. defeat Despite). However, it is not enough, hence the need for the 2nd Chronicles. (I lifted the answer from TheFallen's excellent thread: TLD. Fusing the psychological alloy - an allegory unravelled (which I know you have already read :lol: ))

u.
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Post by peter »

I Have, I have - now all I need to do is skim W A Seniors essay and I'll be bang up to speed! ;)
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

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